Introducing myself and looking for some real guidance from the pro's

[tony8404 0]

Hello everyone, my name is tony and i am from illinois. i am not fresh out of high school or going into college or just got out of college, matter of fact i never went. I was never pushed to take school seriously, i was never taught or talked to about how important it is to find or do something you like for a job/career. as a matter of fact i went through my early years as a free for all, my mom was always busy with my lil sister and my dad was really into his work, to the point where he would work 8-10 hours then come home and eat and work till midnight. i do not blame any one for this especially my parents, my dad just retired as an engineer and did very well. he was able to retire with out having to worry about money, seeing this and realizing i just got into my 30's and am running out of time myself to make myself a comfortable and enjoyable retirement. not to mention help my children out with college and teaching them the importance of school. also not to blow it off. Not to mention my wife just lost her job this past friday due to the economy so things are not looking good right now. i really do not wanna loose my house or have my wife stressing out from looking for a new job and cant get anything. so i would like for her to be home with our two little girls and just me work, now i know at these times its hard to do this but i feel if i get into the electronic field i can make that happen for her. She really is upset, she feels like it is her fault, blames herself and i am tired of seeing her with tears for something she could not control... So what i want to do is make this all go away for her.... So here i am.... i made a choice to go with electronics..... just not sure what path in electronice but i feel i found it in plc's.... I just started to go to a school called Coyne American institute, I enrolled in the E.S.T diploma program which stands for electronic systems technician. I did not go with the E.C.M. diploma program which stands for electronic construction maintenance which of course has a course in plc's. but i am gonna try to see if i can take it by itself. For some reason i feel plc is the path for me dont know why just have that feeling. One, it might be because i really like computers and plc's sorta remind me of them. The only thing is i do not know where to begin. I wanna try to learn it on my own. due to work and school i have no time to take a plc training at some company so i would have to do it on my own. I just dont wanna dive in and dive into the wrong part which might discourage me, thinking i couldnt learn it. i have been broswing the net and on this site for beginning plc's but not finding anything... can anyone help me out ????? So far from what i have seen allen bradley seems like the right place to start off in, to me it seems allen bradley is very popular or being used the most, though i could be wrong thats why i am here but i thought to start with allen bradley is this wrong? I also have seen kits or bundles you can buy that say you can learn plc's from that, i guess there kinda do it on your own course for like 150.00 dollars. not sure if that is the way to go? since alot of this forums members have been in the plc field for a long time, so i would like to know how you started off in the field???? whether it was a course or a package deal or on your own if you could please help me out i would really be grateful and just think of the karma thats in it for you

[BobLfoot 302]

Check out Ron Beaufort's website. He offers very good PLC training and not just on AB.

[Mickey 71]

Welcome to the forum. See links below for a couple of great places to start. http://www.thelearningpit.com/lp/logixpro.html http://www.plcs.net/contents.shtml

[TimWilborne 108]

I'm not going to tell you what to do with your money, but your wife is already leaving the workforce to stay at home with the kids, which I commend. But I would wait until I adjust to the loss of income before I commit to school or look at changing professions. Of course, I dove in head first too so who am I to talk

[Steve Bailey 118]

Tony, One thing you need to be aware of is that there aren't too many jobs out where all you do is program PLCs. A PLC is just one tool in your box when dealing with a process that needs to be automated. You will also need to be comfortable around the the rest of the tools. There are any number of sensors that tell the PLC what the process is doing. These are the PLC's eyes and ears, wired to input modules. Things like limit switches, proximity switches, photoelectric sensors, pressure sensors, level sensors, flow sensors, etc. There are devices that control the operation of the machine. These are the PLC's outputs. They include hydraulic and pneumatic solenoid valves, motor starters, drives, modulating valves, heaters, etc. You will need to be familiar with HMI devices. These are the ways the operators of the machinery tell the PLC how to control the machine. This is just a short list of the tools you'll have to get comfortable working with. You also have to understand that the controls person is usually the last person to finish when starting up a new project. That means that when you're finishing your work and something goes wrong with some other part of the machine, you'll be expected to deal with that even though it may not be your "real" job. You'll also find that that when things go wrong, people place the blame on whatever they they understand the least, and that's usually the controls, quite often the PLC program. You would do well to review the "PLC Rules" thread on this site. It's kind of a lighthearted look at the field, but it contains a lot of wisdom accumulated via the school of hard knocks. If you decide to take the plunge, welcome to a fascinating discipline where you can find a lot of job satisfaction

[BobLfoot 302]

Hardly headfirst TW - I recall an awful lot of emails and chats we had about it as well as I know you spent a good deal of time in prayer before making your jump. If TW's case is any example, it is to make sure you have your family and if possible a community supporting you.

[kaiser_will 65]

Welcome to the forum, tony8404. Steve Bailey summed it up well that PLC programming is just a bit of what most of us do. There is HMI programming, applying solid programming principles, electrical schematic reading/developing, and troubleshooting (the big one for most of us). I do not know about your area, but I have found technical programs are often stepping stones for people already within an organization (such as for a maintenance electrician to move up to engineering technician). For the person off the street, they really should understand the job and business market in their area very, very well before trudging into a tech program. You might be stuck with a student loan bill and little market to apply your skills when you are done with the program. You really should find an "in" in your area. Someone who is in the field or has knowledge of people with your targeted skills. Another thing to consider is going for the true 4-year program as compared to a technical degree. Many 4-year engineering programs have far better job placement success than smaller 2-year technical programs. That, plus the marketability of a 4-year engineering degree is typically much broader than a 2-year degree. The downside is you are out of the job market longer, so your family income takes a longer hit whilst you work on your studies. However, I found the struggle and the trip to be well worth the ride. Your viewpoint for where you want to wind up in the job force changes so much when you are immersed in all the technology out there today, that can be seen at a 4-year program. Do a little research and find the best 2 to 4 engineering programs in your area and near very close family or friends (being close to good friends/family will help out your spouse when you are schooling 18 hours a day). Take a day off and go tour a campus then speak with the job placement office. The experience may very well knock your socks off. For you, the University of Illinois-Champaign, University of Wisconsin-Madison, Rose-Hullman Institue of Technology (Ohio), and Iowa State University (my alma mater) are a few hours away. All superb programs. Rose-Hullman is a fantastic school, but tough as nails to get into. You won't be the only person in your thirties starting engineering school, by the way.

[tony8404 0]

thanks for the responses guys. i will check into the links that were provided. i see what you mean that this is only one tool... this is why i was asking where to start out in plc's i do not have a problem with getting familiar with other tools, its just that i want to know where to correctly begin the learning process. to me so far it seems like i need to learn the actual plc's themselves first. this seems to be the major part to the process and everything else kinda revolves around the plc, as explained in the last post about other tools like push buttons, sensors, pnuematics ect... i wasnt going to spend more money on anything as of yet, that is why i was asking if anyone had any good links or how did some of you out there start out in plc's... Once i have a good grasp on the basics is when i would consider a class in plc's. i do not wanna struggle through the class and be discouraged. I know there are not many jobs just to be a plc programmer, i was browsing career builder and i had saw some jobs with plc in the description and i figured that would give me more of an edge then just going through the diploma program that i am taking now at school because the school is a more of a touch on everything not too in depth but enough to get you familiar and then the place you get a job at would form you to there needs i guess.. this is what were told so far. but if anyone could let me know how and where they started off with plcs that would be great like did you start off by reading books or taking a class or websites or one of those week long crash courses...thanks

[panic mode 246]

excellent comments. making living from just plc programming is going to be hard to find. there are many more areas that one will face sooner or later (servos/motion, networking, robots, circuit design, safety circuits etc.).

[tony8404 0]

hold on a second.... i did not mean that i only wanted to get a job programming plc's.. i know there is more to it then just plc's... The information i am trying to get out of this post is... i know alot of the people on this forum have been working with plc's for sometime now, so i know there not newbies but yet they had to at one time learn plc's from the bottom and work your way up.... So since alot of you guys know your stuff on plc's NOW, then BEFORE i would like to know how you started out in plc's, if you went to school or took a course on plc's then you may not be able to put your two cents in but you can tell me where to start out at. but for the ones who learned it on your own or started yourself and then went to school or took a class on the rest please let me know... i just do not know where to start off with plc's, so since you guys already learned them by the road you took and at the end of the road realized hey, if i was to went this route or did this instead of that i would have been done faster or it would have been easier to learn.. that is what i am trying to find out a place to start or a correct path to follow.. i started reading about plc's themselves and once i have that down i will learn the other tools one by one... some of the links that were provided to me have a good intro pdf to download and print out ;

[kaiser_will 65]

To most potential employers, you are most valuable with project experience under your belt. Knowing how to get online with a PLC and some programming abilities is just part of the job description. If you employer is a manufacturer, most likely you will be a maintenance electrician or engineering technician and you will be called upon to troubleshoot why a process or feature is not working properly. Knowing how to program PLCs, in this case, is just a smidgeon of the job so your troubleshooting abilities are going to be key. The PLC ends up being the window into the process most of the time for troubleshooting. If your employer is a project contractor, your task may be to modify a program to add a feature (such as add a cooling circulation fan) or to develop a program for a new machine from their base PLC program code (so as to keep the under the hood feel the same). Again, knowing how to program the PLC is just part of the picture. Knowing the basics of different applications is expected from your employer; experience that comes from your schooling and from past project history. I learned basic PLC programming fundamentals in college, but most of my highly-degreed professors had never programmed a typical application in the field. Thus, my PLC experience on Day One was limited and my employer footed the bill and invested in me to build the project and knowledge experience. Most employers have a set way they want things done (i.e., program and element naming, ladder file naming and structure, programming techniques such as PID loops or closed-loop speed control, program version control). Most of us practicing controls engineers/technicians on this forum will take at least 1-2+ courses a year on new technology (wireless Ethernet), different programming software (your employer sold an Omron project and nobody knows Omron), refresher courses (Ethernet/IP), code standards (such as FDA regulations or NEC), software update features (such as RSLogix500 to RSLogix5000), advanced programming techniques (RSLogix5000 Advanced), or whatever. Courses might be free, but most likely they will cost a lot and our employer will expense the charges. The courses are seldom a bargain; they are a cost of doing business and a source of revenue for that controls/software vendor. Most of us wound up where we are not by following a known path but by taking steps along the way. I went to school to become an Elec Engr to design audio/guitar amps (a hobby since I was a wee lad). However, only a couple of universities have true coursework and employment opportunities built around this field. So I picked the best school that was close to home and family with a superb career placement office. Years later I do controls work and repair audio/guitar amps on the side. Get an "IN" to start building applied knowledge experience. Start networking...a neighbor, friend, someone from church, a buddy who does the work you desire or employs people or is a contractor. I highly suggest contracting...one of the best ways to get well rounded. Market yourself to get your foot in the door. You mention you are going to tech school...start networking to do a real project for someone pro-bono (FYI - there usually is a liability issue that a lot of schools shy away from, so you might be on your own to find a contact). You might find the work is not your cup of tea, or you might find your desire is designing this or integrating that. Most of us did not select Allen-Bradley RSLogix5000 as a place to start learning PLC programming because so many employers use the package or it turns up a lot in searching open job descriptions. Our employers probably told us to enroll in an upcoming class or we knew we needed to get more knowledge to make our next job performance review. We took the class and applied the knowledge to a project(s).

[TimWilborne 108]

I think a lot of it will be dependent on how you learn...THE FOLLOWING IS MY OPINION You may learn well by reading on the subject. If so there is a huge book that may help. I've never been much on reading and have never even downloaded it so I can't say for sure http://forums.mrplc.com/index.php?autocom=downloads&showfile=156 You may learn from listening to an instructor. I don't want to sound like I'm shooting down education, but given your situation I don't believe this would be a good option UNLESS you are already employed in the field so that you can go to school at night to build on what you do during the day. For example, I worked in a machine shop, then started building control panels for it, then learned a little about programming, and then we started doing occasional jobs that required hydraulics. I couldn't get enough experience there with hydraulics to learn about them so I took a couple of hydraulic classes to further my control skills. Personally, I've always learned by doing. I was given a laptop and told to see if I could program a machine. After a couple of days of beating my head against the wall, this was before these wonderful forums, it click and I managed to program the machine. From there I started dissecting others programs when I could. I might have been at a plant doing some unrelated repairs and just walked by a guy troubleshooting a machine. I would start a conversation and learn how he was going about it. When I was done I would ask if I could have a copy of the program to look at when I got home. No one ever said no. I wasn't looking to copy some proprietary information or replicate their machine and they realized that. Then I began looking a machines in a different way. I no longer cared about what part they were shooting out. I started looking at where the external sensors were on them and tried to figure out how I could write a program based off of the input data and the sequence the machine must follow. I gathered PLCs when I could so I could learn more about their instruction sets and practice different methods of programming. I read the threads in this forum and see how others, especially the veterans, would go about a solution when a question is asked. I learn something new everyday And Bob was right then and now. Even if you dive head first, you must make sure it is the best move for your family and that they are behind you all the way. As long as they are, you'll land on your feet...just watch out for those tree stumps

[tony8404 0]

Well, i do know for sure this is the best move for me and my family. my wife will have unemployment for the next 6months and then can extend it at this time. so my money situation is okay not like i had thought when i started this post. So now i know i have time to learn on my own with out having to have a dead line or anything. i will be done with my school this august. so i will learn on my own till august, then i will see about taking a course that may give some sorta certificate for plc's because then i will know the basics i learned on my own so i wont need to start from square one i will know some of it so i can grasp the more indepth study instead of the basics.

[Clay B. 1]

Not sure if this help much because my start is pretty much an uncommon approach. I started in this feild because as a kid I was given a PLC to play with by my father. I told him I want a robot for christmas. Back then you could get one from Radio Shack. Well christams got here and instead of the robot I got a TI-5 PLC he had removed from the plant he was working at. The plant had upgraded to TI 520's. He gave me this PLC and said build your "own" robot. Took me over a year but I did build a six axis robot with a 28" reach. MY point to this look into my sorted past is this. To build the robot I "played" around with the PLC to understand how it worked. I also worked hard to understand how the program related to the componets on the robot. Just understand this is NOT a field for the easily frustrated or the faint of heart. It takes time, time and more time and when you really start to understand something it becomes obsolete. That said what your doing now wll get your foot in the door, what you do after that will keep you in a job. The learning never ends it will always be continuos. Since you want to learn on your own, and where you are currently working does not have PLC's for you to work with I suggest you get one of your own. Used ones can be found on E-Bay all the time. and play with it. Think up a process, then try and create it. Start simple and work your way up. As for the do over you asked about.... I wished I would have got my BSEE right after I got my ASEE. While I honestly believe you learn more on the job than anywhere else, the 4 year degree tends to to get you into the higher paying areas faster.

[Mach 0]

I geared my career more towards electrical, Instrumentation and controls. I haven't done any programming in a few years. I make good money and the work is interesting. It's always 6 one way half a dozen the other. I travel lots so that part is getting old. Best of luck.

[tony8404 0]

Thank you for the post over the weekend. i thought this post would be dead by now. I am glad you talked about having a plc and playing with it because i know when i was a kid all i did is play with legos and man since that i believe that is why i am able to have such a creative mind, am able to put things together where some have problems with it. also i believe it gave me good troubleshooting skills, different ways of analyzing stuff as well when some people can only look at one thing in one way i can look at the same thing and see a few different ways of doing it instead of the one way most see. just over this weekend i got my kids into legos and man they never been so quite. What would be a worthy purchase for a plc to start with or is a very common one that many places use that would be a good start for me? thanks

[TimWilborne 108]

Find one on Ebay for cheap that you can use free software with Allen Bradley has free software for some 10 point Micrologixs http://forums.mrplc.com/index.php?showtopic=12217 Mitsubishi GX Developer with 1000 step limit can be downloaded at... http://forums.mrplc.com/index.php?autocom=downloads&showfile=526 Automation Direct has a 100 word version of theirs http://web4.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopp...ftware/PC-DS100 If any of you Omron guys are listening, they desperately need a limited version of their CX-One for this same purpose. The 30 day trial version just doesn't cut it. I was interested in it...when you're like most of us and have other project to do, 30 days can fly by. I probably was able to play with it for 4 hours in that 30 days. By the time I got a moment to really play with it, the 30 days had expired Jesper, does Siemens have any limited software such as this? I don't believe they used to.

[CX_Luigi 1]

for Siemens is available Step 7 Lite, as far as I know is free to download and only requires registration. Limited to standalone PLCs and no networking functions, although is possible to upgrade to the full Step 7 package. Download link For Omron your best bet is getting hold of training kits (usually PLC+HMI+cables+software), at a price however.

[Clay B. 1]

Once you have your PLC... Build something. What I mean is find something that requires a sequence. A machine you have seen. stoplights...whatever The point is start simple then work you way up. Trying to get a sequence of events to happen when you want them and in a certain order is what programing is all about. Just knowing the difference between XIC and XIO is not enough.

[tony8404 0]

Hey guys, Last night i finally ran into a teacher i had in another class that used to work with plc's. i had asked him about where to begin and he was not much help but did provide a name to search for jobs with plc's. which is control engineer... i did a search for control engineer on career builder, alot comes up in my area and the pay doesnt look bad at all. but when i look into the description and requirments it becomes jibber jabber. some places are looking for a bsee or 5 years experience. now since i am not going to school for a bsee or engineering at all but i am going for a diploma in electronic system technician. i also found out last night that once i am done with the program i am done with now i can go back and take the other diploma program which is called the electrical construction maintenance which is more towards single phase, three phase, high voltage, plc's, motors. but i will be able to skip the classes i already took. Now i know if i just stick with what i have now or go for the other program it will be nothing close to engineering but will i still have a chance getting into control engineering??? for some reason when i see engineering in the title or desription or requirements i get discouraged. but until i finish with my school program in august i want to get into plc's on my own time so i can grasp plc's better once i take the class. but until then should i start off learning ladder logic, programming or the different devices and they do??? the teacher i talked to kinda harped on learning the different devices, he told me if i try this all on my own i may get to some points where i cannot figure it out unless someone shows me and i said that is what mrplc.com is for lol... i do understand terminology is also a very big thing and consider that a must that is why i did not mention terminology... also, in previous posts from members in this thread i found a nice big free book to read which i have started just need to read more. but anymore help or guidance please keep providing i feel like a giant sponge

[kaiser_will 65]

Most Controls Engineer positions require experience. If you have no experience, they require a BSEE. Without the BSEE and without the experience, then you are left to look for an electrical technician position that meets your capabilities. If you want to pursue the higher paying controls engineer positions, you either need the experience or the 4-year degree. Read all the books and literature you want, but future employers are going to continue to tell you the same thing. All that "jibber jabber" are the skills of the trade that controls engineers have worked to add to to their toolbox. Pursue the more in-depth 4-year degree or get your foot in the door somewhere. Are you trying to find a quicker or easier way to get to a higher-paying, more technical position in engineering? This field typically pays for what you know and can apply. What could you do on Day #1?

[BobLfoot 302]

Will is absolutely right. I was a Project Manager with a System Integrator and to "reduce stress" (insert your flavor of laugh here) took an Electrical Maintenance Team Leader Position at a Fortune 500 concern. The new title places me 4 levels of management down from where I was in the scheme of things, but I am happy. To make Controls or Electrical Engineer with my new company I'd need to spend several years as an Electrical Engineering Tech, then a Senior Engineering Tech Followed by a stint as a junior engineer. Oh and yes I have a BS, just not a BSEE from the accredited schools my employer recognizes. Am I as or more skilled than they guys doing the Engineering work? More than likely I am. Now you get the idea, you're paid for what you can do, but in certain companies it is also what "sheepskin" you can hang on the wall as well.

[Clay B. 1]

Now there is irony for you. I just left a Project/Maintenace Engineering position to take on a Intergrator position to reduce stress and get some sleep at night.... As for the "sheepskin" I only have an ASEE so I have hit those doors before. Been my experience, the bigger the company the more important the degree. I was recently called by a company that I had done contract work for in the past. Even though I helped with the design and construction of the equipment they are currently running,I am underqualified for a senior engineering position. Accordng to them I can not have an engineering position, but I do qualify, according to them for an entry level maintenace position. Needless to say I do not work for said company. I am listed as an Electrical Controls Engineer with my current employer and I design and build control panels and all the other fun stuff that goes along with it. I tested for this position. Long and short..... BSEE= generally faster track to higher pay ASEE= get you there slower and your options tend to be more limited. If I had to do over or may still do it..... I would get my BSEE.....I would also get a really nice frame to put it in......then throw it in the bottom drawer of my desk with all my other certificates and diplomas... Just remember one thing when you get on the job... If you have a BSEE or an ASEE you are still going to look as dumb as a brick.... Find someone you can learn from.... No matter how much you study in school some really frustrating OJT will be yours wherever you go to work...

[ssommers 20]

Clay B is right about finding a mentor. School just isn't enough in this field. I have the BSEE, but would never have gotten into Controls Engineering if it hadn't been for a generous maintenance supervisor during my co-op student years. I went to GMI (now Kettering University) and had to rotate working 3 months then going to school 3 months for 5 yrs. One of my work sections in 1985 was as a maintenance dispatcher and they had AB in to train the electricians on the brand-new PLC 2/30. The supervisor let me sit in the back of the room during training. After that, I tagged along with an electrician on my lunch breaks. A few work sections later, I worked in the Controls Engineering group and documented PLC programs for a new line - a valuable lesson I'll never forget! Then I spent my Thesis year working on a cost-benefit analysis of networking PLCs in the plant while putting together a sample network. Even after I graduated, I had mentors who taught me electrical machine design to go along with the programming I learned OTJ. The key here is that I've had lots of mentors along the way over the last 20+ yrs. For just that reason, I keep paying it forward as opportunity to train someone else arises. Tony - May you be blessed with a local mentor soon. Until then, and even after, there's always MrPLC...

[tony8404 0]

i see what you guys mean... i am not looking for the fastest route, i want to make sure i start learning at the right place if i am going to start it by myself... i am going to take a plc class at school once i am done with my electronic system tech diploma. would you guys recommend starting off with learning ladder logic or learning terminology or programming? also, before i forget to mention i do know someone that is an engineer and just retired lol my dad.. he started off in the airforce ( i could not join the service due to asthma but man did the rangers want me lol) after he got out of the service he went to devry for engineering.. My dad is a really smart guy but he has one problem he is somewhat of a perfectionist which means he has some patience but if i do not understand something and if he has to repeativly show me he kind of is done then i guess you can say... but this is one reason i am going for the electronic systems technician diploma so this way i have a grasp on the basics so i can follow him easier then looking retarted lol... he was an engineer for at least 30 years and he did really well with retirement, so on the weekends i can go to him and learn plcs i guess he should be able to help me the man has 3 patents under his belt.