entertron

What's the reason for asking?

Ryno, In order to assist you with offering direction as to the platform, you must first offer information about what you are looking to accomplish in your application. Are you developing a product? Is it for factory automation? What are your I/O requirements? Not all PLCs are created equal. You will have to be careful of "hidden" costs. What you have provided so far, is not sufficient to make any specific recommendation. You had stated that you were on your own, so cost is an issue. As previous posts had stated, there are starter kits with limited functionality software or free evaluation software for download. Either way, you will eventually have to purchase the software. Therefore, your starting cost is $395.00 for the AD software...minimum. There are other companies, including the one I work for that offer their programming software at no additional cost to the user. As stated before, much will depend on your requirements in determining the PLC manufacturer that will meet your overall application (and company) needs. Hope this helps. God Bless,

Ian, A couple of questions... 1. Is the 4.25 amps a continuous load or inrush? 2. What controller are you currently using? The quick answer is interfacing 8 solid state relays to the PLC, as suggested above. We offer a solid state controller that will handle an 8 amp inrush on a 24 VDC load and a 2 amp continuous rating. The base configuration is 16 / 16. Information can be found at www.entertron.com/elite.htm If you have any questions, feel free to post or call. Hope this helps. God Bless,

Even though the analog module will read to 1.25 mV, you are still using a full scale of 0-5 volts with each 1.25 mV = approximately 1 bit. If you have a range of 0-1000 mV rather than 0-5 VDC, your accuracy and resolution is much more precise. (Based on 12 bit analog) For a 0-1000 mV range, each mV = 4.095 bits When using a 0-5 VDC input to read a 0-1000 mV signal, you are only using 20% of the total range.

It may sound basic to do, but in many cases, customers want the product they are purchasing to already have the capability. Makes for a cleaner, less complicated solution. Would you rather get something "out of the box" ready to go, or have something where "batteries are not included"?

Why don't you describe your application and what you are looking to do. The information you have provided so far is quite vague. Without knowing details, it is difficult to assist you in determining what controller product or manufacturer would best fit your application. The vast majority of PLCs can be interfaced to HMIs. Many have their own protocol that the display manufacturers have written for, or in our case we have used an industry standard protocol (ModBus RTU).

Jesper, With regards to the third party products you are talking about...are you referring specifically to PLC programming software or other software used in conjunction with the PLC, such as HMI software like Wonderware? In order for their to be third party programming software, the PLC manufacturer would have to provide their operating source code for another company to affectively write based on the numonics of the firmware/operating system. I can see a company doing this only if there was some sort of guaranteed royalty.

Jesper, Let me attempt to clarify my position. First, your employment to create programs for a PLC that in essence becomes someone else's solution or product is different than the scenario we are discussing. We are talking about the development of a product that has two parts - the hardware and the tool to program the hardware. You cannot have a PLC without some method of programming it, hence the "P" in PLC. Therefore, the software development is part of the overall development of the hardware. You are taking the programming tool, to develop a program for the hardware, that will make the hardware work as you require and therefore applying it to a specific application requirement. That is your company's objective. The development costs for software developers would not disappear. It is all in how you decide to allocate your costs. We view the software development as part of the entire development of the PLC, therefore do not separate it as other companies do. Those that are charging for their software, are either recouping a portion of their development costs, or creating a profit center to operate independently. Power to them that do. And there lies the answer to the original question. You said that you and your customer's are satisfied with the way it is now. You have accepted how they do business, and are therefore willing to do business with them on their terms. This is how the market works. There are enough people that are satisfied, and thus the status quo remains. On the other side of the equation, there are also many that are not satisfied, but have no choice but to pay the fees, because of their installed base, whether OEM or end user...it has become a cost of doing business. Will there be a difference in capabilities of programming software that you have to purchase as compared to programming software that is free of charge...most definitely. If you want all the bells and whistles, then go with the company that charges for their software. If you want a capable programming package that does what it is supposed to do...program the PLC, then go with the inexpensive or free package. Every PLC programming package is different in feel. Therefore, there will be likes and dislikes. It typically comes down to what one first learned on or is most familiar with, that the comparisons are made. Let me pose the following scenarios: With regards to your development services, do you charge your customers for your tools...being the software? I would believe that your company probably has a few different PLCs that you typically use in your projects. How do you allocate the cost of the programming software tools? This would be in essence a separate cost from your development service. If they wanted a system developed on a PLC that your company had never programmed, would you charge them for the cost of the programming software in addition to your programming service? On a final note, you must also look at persective...that of the customer. Are they a maintenance person that has various machines to service? Are they an OEM with a product whereby they don't use the software as much as a systems integrator. Your situation will assist in determining the best options available, and therefore your willingness (or unwillingness) to accept the conditions in doing business with the PLC vendor of your choice (or that is specified) I hope this better clarifies my previous post. God Bless,

Jesper, So you develop a PLC our operator interface without software...what can you do with it besides being used as a paper weight? Likewise, you develop programming software and there is no PLC or touch screen...what use is it? The point being that they are not separate items that can be used independently of eachother, but are two pieces that make one complete item. The expenses to develop anything are substantial. The irrational part is this misconception that programming software development is separate from the development of the PLC...the software is a utility for the PLC...nothing more, nothing less. You can't tell me that software development costs would have to be recouped in higher hardware costs, because some of the manufacturers have significant hardware costs already...and it is these companies that already charge for their software. As I had stated earlier, other companies are able to charge you for software because they can. Nothing has threatened their market share or revenue stream to force them to do otherwise. For some, the surprise comes after the first year, when after they have purchased units and software, come to find out that they now have yearly support fees, if they want to continue purchasing the latest and greatest versions, not to mention access to customer support.

Sir, A question you are not the first to ask, and most certainly not the last to ask either. There are various thoughts behind the cost of software, depending on the company. The most common is that in order to develop software, you require engineers and therefore have created a cost center. Companies such as AB have turned a "cost center" in to a "profit center" by charging for software. Therefore, they are squeezing that much more out of their customers, who already support them by purchasing their hardware products. An even more interesting observation is the disparity in what some manufacturers charge. Some are well over $1K while others are in the $400-500 range. Our company is also of the opinion that you can't have a PLC without software, therefore account for the development costs as one. If you are paying for the software and support, then technically, you should be getting first class service. However, in many cases, that isn't true. The larger companies are more concerned at generating profits to appease the Wall Street analysts than providing the best service to their customers. It is unfortunate, but the customer is probably third on the list when it comes to level of importance. It is unfortunate when customers and employees rank behind shareholders and analysts. Don't get me wrong, I am all for capitalism and making a profit, but when greed is the primary motivator, there is a problem. Many of these larger companies could either give the software away, or atleast sell it for a lot less, and still make a very nice profit. Why aren't they? Because they don't have to. If they were to lose market share as a result of their software and support costs, then I seriously believe that they would either drop their price or give it away. And yes many of the smaller companies, mine included give away software and offer free support. I can't speak for others, but our reasons are to offer something, in this case software and support that should be included when you purchase the product initially. It is also a marketing tool...whereby in order to get something of value, you must give something away of value. A third reason, is merely to be different. We make a decent profit as a private company, so we are not beholden to the public shareholders and Wall Street analysts. Keep in mind, infringing on copyright laws, or pirating software is not the solution to this issue. If you are using a company's products, you should be doing it ethically. If you don't like what they charge, you have the option of going with a different product. Theft is never an option. Hope this gives you some insight. God Bless,

Pat, Interesting application. You will be hard pressed to find a standard PLC that will monitor a 0-1000 mV analog signal directly. You would probably have to use a 0-5 VDC signal and only have 20% resolution, or a signal conditioner...which would be an additional cost. The options presented are rather costly control platforms. In addition to the cost of the hardware, the software is also costly. We have two customers that are using ORP sensors directly to the Smart-PAK PLUS. One is for a portable water filtration plant. The other application involves cyanide destruction. Each application uses the Smart-PAK PLUS in conjuntion with ORP sensors connected directly to the analog input that was configured for 0-1000 mV and +/- 2 VDC on the second application for both ORP and PH. For your water temperature probe, we can also configure RTD and Type K thermocouples in one controller. Other products would be modular based and therefore would require a separate modules for your voltage inputs and temperature inputs, whereby the Smart-PAK PLUS is a board level product, with the circuitry designed into the board and configured according to the application requirements. With regards to your application: 1. Input 2 items via a control panel and read 3 probes-pH, water temp, and orp(oxidation, reduction potential-used for determining chlorine requirement). The input signals will be mV up to 1000mV. ---YES 2. The PLC needs to then do an algebraic calculation using constants, water temp, and two log calculations. ---Will depend on the calculations 3. Based upon that number an "IF, Then" statement is required. --- YES 4. Another simple algebraic addition is then done --- YES 5. Another "IF, Then" statement which either sends a signal to a relay or stops sending a signal to a relay. ---YES Note - we are unable to do floating point, but depending on the screen you use, might be able to address it through the screen. Much will depend on the number of I/O you will require, as to whether the Smart-PAK PLUS is sufficient for your application. Based on the information you have provided, although helpful, isn't complete to provide you exact pricing, but for 1 pc, you will be under $700.00. This includes programming software. If need be, you can email or contact us directly to discuss your application in greater detail. Hope this helps. God Bless, Stephen Luft

Spanky, What you are asking for can be done by just about any PLC...for which there are many, however, I will suggest what I am familiar with, and those are the controllers my company manufacturers. Entertron Web Site Based on the number of I/O, a micro PLC should be sufficient. The wireless lan you are currently using will need to have some sort of serial connection, in order to interface with the PLC. If you are looking to source other lan products, Aerocomm offers an inexpensive product that we have worked with in the past. Aerocomm product page On the front end, or PC end, I would consider an HMI package that is already done and can be programmed. We market a product from KEP called Infilink. Here is a link to the product information and downloads - HMI Software page You can download a development package with 1 hour run license to see if it is what you are looking for. Another option for your front end software, if you have the time is creating something in visual basic - this would cost less up front, but would require an investment of your time. Disclaimer...I am employed by Entertron, so the information presented is biased. Hope this is information you can use. If you have any questions regarding the information I have provided, you can either call or email from our web site. God Bless, Stephen Luft

Ahmad, You will want to contact the manufacturer for the software.

mDavis, There are a number of resources at your disposal. The articles on this web site may be of assistance to you. The www.plcs.net site, offers both online tutorials and a very popular forum. The owner of this site also has a book and video series available for purchase. If you are looking for something hands on, you may want to try www.learningpit.com We also offer a comprehensive download for our own controllers. Included are 32 programming examples, manual and simulator that is built into the software. Hope this helps. God Bless,

Steve, Based on what you have said so far, you will require at least one analog output for your VFD. Do you have any additional specifics for the I/O you will require? Will you require a temperture input for determining when the dampers should be opened or closed? How many dampers are there and will they be controlled together or independent of eachother? How many guages will you require? Are they analog, digital or pulse? Sorry for all the questions, but the more specific your information is, the more specific your questions can be answered as to which would be best for your application.

Steve, Before you can even answer the question as to which is better...to which there is no real answer because it depends on your application. First, what are your application requirements? I have experienced in many situations that your requirements will determine that either a controller is a good solution or just doesn't fit at all. Obviously, you will have some bias in that you are familiar with Allen Bradley. However, Allen Bradley and Automation Direct are not the only PLC vendors you can choose from. Each will have their strengths and weaknesses, both in product, price and customer service / support. Keep your mind open to other possibilities as well. I look forward to reviewing your application requirements. Please note that I am employed by Entertron - an embedded PLC manufacturer. Hope this helps. God Bless,

Just to let you know, in checking with my engineer, we would be able to do a 0-18 volt analog output span. Unfortunately, this doesn't help you if you are using Omron for your control.

Are you actually looking to drive the valve or just control the position of the valve? What controller are you currently using and what are the I/O requirements? The reason I ask is that it might be possible to configure one of our controllers for that analog output range.

Larry, We have one product that handles up to 7 amps (relay restriction) with a common rating of 8 amps. We have another product that incorporates 10 amp relays and is rated for up to 8 amps (common restriction) The relays are not pluggable, due to vibration concerns, however all terminal blocks are pluggable...for easy installation and replacement. Both products come with a 5 year warranty.

Larry, Seems like a lot of additional work when there are products out there that can do what you are needing.

We did an article a few years ago, regarding the advantages of controlling solenoid valves with our solid state output, compared to relay outputs. We then went a step further in comparing our design with other PLC designs. When determining the best method, the answer is - it depends. It depends on how often you are cycling your outputs. It depends on the controller you are using and the capability of that output. Not all controllers and outputs are created equal. When you are dealing with many controllers that offer a transistor output of a half amp or less, then a solid state relay is usually required. You obtain the current driving cabability you require and maintain the solid state reliability. However, you add addtional cost to your application because the controller was insufficient to begin with. A typical PLC relay output is 2 amps. That should suffice for most solenoids, but now you have to concern yourself with life of the relay. The greater the inductive load, the shorter the life of the relay. Solenoids are inductive devices. Here is a link to our article. http://www.entertron.com/press5.htm At the time of the article we used our triac design. The same can be said for our transistor design...both are designed with similar ratings and capabilities. Hope this helps. God Bless,

You can find older PLCs on eBay. Availability will depend on who is selling. Other companies you may try are: Tek Supply PLC Center They predominantly offer repair services and sell refurbished products. Hope this helps. God Bless,

KinK, The original post was for analog outputs. The DL05 only has analog outputs through a combination module that includes inputs. Unfortunately, you can only get a maximum of two outputs, whereas they are requesting four. I am biased as to what controller to offer as a solution. Depending on the number of digital I/O you will require, you may want to consider the Smart-PAK PLUS - Smart-PAK PLUS You can obtain a configuration of 4 analog outputs as 0-5, 0-10, +/-5 VDC or two of the outputs can be 0-20 mA. In addition, the controller would be configured with 8 DC in / 6 relay out. A single piece OEM price starts at $565.00 for the above configuration with two serial ports. This price includes software and support. Please note that I work for Entertron Industries...for which this product is manufactured. There are other larger systems that would allow you to do this, but the cost will be greater. A DL205 is approximately $700, with a small amount of digital I/O. This does not include software. A Micrologix 1500 is approximately $1540.00 before any discounts and does not include software. Mitsubishi FX1N is approximately $655.00 before any discounts and doesn't include software Siemans S7200 is approximately $620.00 before any discounts and doesn't include software. Keyance Visual is approximately $779.00 for two analog output modules (2 points each) before any discounts and doesn't include programming software. Hope this helps. God Bless,

A common problem with looking for a controller on Ebay is that the software is usually not included. So, you are buying the controller and have no way of programming it. Some of the programming software is very expensive.

XavuD, A little late in responding to this post...seeing as it is nearly a year old. However, if you are still looking for something to meet the requirements listed below, you might want to consider a product that we manufacturer called the Smart-PAK PLUS. www.entertron.com/smart-pak.htm Hope this helps. God Bless