entertron

Sir, We might be able to assist you in your application. I have forwarded your information off to my engineer for review. In keeping the solution somewhat modular / configurable, you might want to consider the Smart-PAK PLUS - www.entertron.com/smart-pak.htm Feel free to give us a call to discuss further. Our listed number is 716-772-7216 God Bless,

One thing you will need to consider, if you are going into the PLC world is that you may have to be versed in serveral manufacturers. Each manufacturer offers their own software and methods in programming. It would be advantageous to grasp the theory first before going into specific manufacturers. In some instances you may be able to choose what you use. In other cases, they will dictate what is to be used. To get you started, you can download our software through the following link. www.entertron.com/software.htm Follow the instructions in that the software is password protected. This will get you started. Keep in mind that other manufacturers will offer software that will do things somewhat differently, however the theory should be the same. And you can't beat the price. There are programming examples, manual and a simulator included in the download. Hope this helps. God Bless,

Jay, You may want to consider our products in that we have done both 12 VDC and extended temperature range controllers for what we call mobile applications. The primary issue will be on the below zero temperature rating. 100 F is only 38 C -20 F is -29 C Industrial components temperature range is -40 C to +85 C 12 VDC control power is not an issue. If you require up to 16 in / 12 out, we offer the Smart-PAK PLUS and SK1600-RIC as the best solutions. For the 15 / 15, the SK1600-RIC and Elite-2000 would be your best options. Information can be viewed through our web site - www.entertron.com If you have any questions, you can email us from our web site, complete our contact form or call directly. All information is available on our web site. Hope this helps. God Bless,

I will put my two cents into the conversation and add our Smart-PAK to the list. www.entertron.com/smart-pak.htm You have ASCII output capabilities through the RS232 port. Internally, you can have up to 99 messages stored in the PLC for transmission through the serial port. Single piece price with cable is $200.00 Programming software is included and can be downloaded from our web site. www.entertron.com/software.htm You will have to complete our contact form for a password to unlock the software - www.entertron.com/form.htm Delivery would be from the US. Hope this helps. God Bless,

Jeremy, How about something that doesn't look like a PLC? We may have something for you. How fast does your pulse train need to be? You may also want to look at www.calex.com Specifically - http://www.calex.com/Scdinrail8500.html

We will be releasing a newsletter at the end of the month on a software product from one of our customers that deals with event capture software relating to the factory floor. I believe this is what you are looking for. If you email me, I will send you the press release for the product in advance of the newsletter release.

Ken, Going back over 20 years, I actually installed York products in the Charlotte / Lake Wylie / Rock Hill area. I recall them being a very good product. They had a York unit for quite some time. I believe my parents now have a Trane system in their home. I believe the change was due to who they selected to install their new unit. I don't believe it was based on manufacturer. For you, it may come down to who you select to do the installation. I can't speak as to who they are now, but through your experience and my memory, it was (and probably still is) a good product. I don't know if there will be much of a difference in efficiency ratings, but you may want to look into different manufacturer's ratings. Is your unit an all in one or split? If a split are you having problems with the outside unit or the blower? Hope this helps. God Bless,

Jesper, Our goal isn't to be like everyone else...as stated previously. The products are vastly different. Ours is not a difference between plug in modules, but rather a factory configured product. We would much prefer to get it right before the controller even ships. Much of what we do today is based on experience. Various things we have tried in the past, didn't work, therefore, we needed to make changes. Your premise is done by many, however, there is one variable that must be taken into account in order for it to work...and that is for people to read the manual or documentation. We have become a hurried society, where we want everything from a drive thru lane. I greatly value direct interaction with a customer. It minimizes the possibility of miscommunication, misapplication of product and thus the potential for a deteriorating relationship. Not getting answers turns more people off. We typically don't have to make that statement, because those that are truly interested will either email or telephone us directly. Should they email us, we will either respond by return email or by telephone. I believe you are referring to AD...aside from price, we offer all of that as well, all without a support contract or registration. In order to receive software updates, you would have had to purchase the software first.

T, Are you asking this in general to the fourm, or specifically to me?

Mickey, Thank you for your response. Based on gravitar's response, I created a profile at the rockwell store without checking to see if you could obtain pricing first. Upon reading your response, I went back to check and see if you could obtain pricing without registration. From the shop home page, I typed in a valid AB part number. It took me to a second screen whereby it asked for general shipping information. Once I completed that, it took me to a screen that listed the availability of my item (without pricing). When you click to add to your cart, it took you to another screen that required registration. Based on my experience with the web site, it appears that you have to register to obtain pricing. I cannot speak to what you have experienced. Your link is the same screen that I started at. Even under the "Quick Order" entry area...it says above that you are to sign in before ordering. I would have to believe that if you were to sign in, you would have to register first.

Gravitar, Nah...I won't call you dense...lol. In answer to your question, we do have a general price list. And have considered what you have suggested, but have decided against it...for many of the reasons posted previously, not to mention others that I have not stated, and choose not to elaborate on. The ordering information (primarily analog information) is merely a guideline. I have had people request information on configurations that are not possible and are stated as such. For instance the Smart-PAK PLUS analog expansion board has to be ordered with one of two main boards. I have had people try to include them with 16/12 configurations. It is a two board set...maximum. Therefore, it is of benefit to the customer for us to talk with them directly, going over everything about the product. With Rockwell's online store, you still have to register, in order to obtain their pricing...which was the initial basis for this thread to begin with. (although product information rather than pricing) Contacting a distributor for pricing requires the same level of effort in obtaining pricing from us. From what I understand, distributors will discount from the list price and sell below the list price from let's say Rockwell's web site. Needless to say, you can purchase from their store, but chances are you will receive better pricing from their distributor in your area. We don't put a time limit on our software. It is what it is. When you purchase a controller, it is included. You download it from the web site and request a password, it is unlocked. There is no additional action required by the customer. Then there is the scenario whereby the customer has specified the part numbers for their application, thus thinking that what they have specified is the best option available. Upon further discussion with them, we may determine a better solution that would save them time and money. Demo software, time specific software all imply that an additional action / purchase is required. With the purchased software, you have site licenses, service contracts, etc...that you have to keep track of. Should you want to utilize the software on more than one computer, you will require additional site licenses. Not only do we offer the software, but we allow for the installation on as many computers as the customer desires. This same approach has saved some schools thousands of dollars in software costs, not to mention yearly maintenance fees. Registration information can be faked as well. We have received many emails with bogus information, fax numbers as contact numbers...home numbers, etc. My point...there are hundreds, even thousands of scenarios possible. Our approach is to address each application individually, providing the best solution we have available. 99 times out of 100, direct contact is required, in order to do so. In the long run, it saves our customers time. They know what they need...we know what we can provide. In some cases, they don't know what they need and we will assist them in sourcing additional components. When they order, their pricing is established, no additional effort is required on the customer's part. New applications / requirements get directly addressed as needed. Again, our primary focus (not exclusive focus) is directed towards OEMs. Just because the information is available online and therefore accessible, doesn't always gurantee a quick answer. Every application is different and therefore requires individual attention.

I find this thread to be rather interesting...even if I never intended and didn't want to be the focus of it. Jesper, How much documentation do you need for PLC hardware? You need to know the capabilities of the I/O...type, ratings...and how to wire to it. What else is there that is truly required? I/O Capabilities types and ratings are found on the product pages. I would think you would need to know this information prior to purchasing the product, in the design phase, in that your entire BOM is dependent on the I/O of the PLC. Wiring information is included in the wiring diagram...in process of being improved as we write. Serial communications is in the manual in that it is more software related than hardware related. There are wiring diagrams for the transformer, (if provided) and the controller itself. Any additional documentation is either provided through the manual, or through additional cut sheets that relate specifically to options. Pricing is based on two aspects...I/O and quantity. As stated in my previous post, we are able to configure countless configurations therefore you are not restricted by the modular approach of traditional PLCs. By determining both, we can provide pricing, not just for a single unit, but also for quantity purchases. So, How do you obtain pricing...All you have to do is ask. There is more on our approach throughout this response. Clay, Even though our primary focus is directed towards the OEM, we sell to end users, single time users etc. The greatest advantage...is that our hardware cost in combination with software cost is extremely competitive for a one time purchase. When your selling a $500.00 PLC one time...every customer requires software. When your product includes the software, it is an immediate savings for that single purchase. And as most of you know, software costs can vary greatly. Basic economics dictates that volume purchases improves economy of scale. It costs less to sell to a repeat customer than to sell the same quantity to as many individually customers. (example - selling 100 units to 1 customer is less expensive than selling 1 unit to 100 customers) Both, from a manufacturing and service after the sale perspective. We anticipate any new customer will require some amount of time of customer support. How much time varies, depending on that individual and their level of experience. Regardless, even if someone is familiar with PLC programming, every manufacturer is different, so there is always some degree of a learning curve. With regards to our pricing approach...the business world has become so impersonal. People don't want to deal with other people. Look at the corporate infrastructure...people hide behind voice mail. Very rarely does a live person actually answer your incoming call. Trying to find someone to talk with in customer support has become a greater challenge today. Our product isn't the type of product that you list all the options and their pricing. We have tried that and for us, it doesn't work. I would much rather invest the time talking with an interested individual, getting to know them, their application and how we can assist them. Businesses are built one customer at a time. Customers are kept by the relationship you develop with them. I have only been doing this for 15 years, but I can tell by the inquiry, whether it is by email or telephone, whether that lead will develop into a customer, based on what they say, and even further, how they say it. Our goal is not to be like these other companies...we tried that before, and it was a huge mistake. Our goal is to differentiate from the norm. We offer unique products, that are competitively priced, and American made, in an industry where the majority are offshore produced. Our warranties are longer. Our service is directed towards the customer, ensuring easy access during our regular business hours. Our primary focus goes well beyond the business aspect. If you have visited our web site then you will understand what I am talking about. I know for a fact that we will not be the best fit for everyone because we do things differently and will not compromise our beliefs for the sake of attracting new business. We develop new customers, one at a time, through personal contact and by addressing their needs. We learned along time ago, that if you sell primarily by price, you will lose customers by price. When you develop a relationship with them, it becomes more than just business. We have had customers tempted to go with other products, because another salesman introduced them to another manufacturer. Because of those relationships, we are able to retain a good percentage of our customers...not by what others dictate to them, but by their desire to stay with us. We go out of our way to protect our customers intellectual property that they spent a great deal of time and money to develop. There are those that don't want what we offer...which is fine, because there are plenty of manufacturers that will sell to them, not caring about anything else. Peter, Thank you for your comments. I would be interested to know more about that OEM drive you have considered. I can talk with you more about how we have been handling third party products, with some encouraging success. To all, Thank you for pointing out some of the areas that we need to improve upon, specifically our wiring diagram information. With regards to pricing, I have considered including a starting price on each product page, but have not made a decision one way or another. My view is that by stating a starting price tends to be very misleading in that it is the lowest price that is published. Many tend to use this price as an absolute price and therefore expect all your products to be that price. A starting price does not take into account the requirements of an application. I would relate it to purchasing a starter kit. Why purchase an entry level PLC that won't address your application requirements? The first controller should at minimum meet the needs of your application. On the first purchase, we tend to oversell the I/O because during the development, I/O requirements tend to increase. God Bless,

Jesper, Thank you for your comments. To address each specifically: First off, we don't require registration for manuals or pricing. Second, you obviously don't understand what we are about as a company. Unlike many of our competitors, that offer either a brick or modular product, ours is board level and can be configured in many different ways. One example of many - we have a customer that uses the Smart-PAK PLUS with the following configuration: - 8 digital inputs - 6 relay outputs - 1 analog input @ 0-5 VDC - 1 analog input @ 0-20 mA - 1 analog input @ 0-50 mV - 1 analog input @ RTD - 4 analog outputs @ 0-10 VDC - Real Time Clock - 2 RS232 ports - ModBus RTU A traditional brick will more than likely not handle ALL of the above capabilities. A modular system will require the CPU, backplane and 7 individual I/O modules. This is all done in one controller using two boards. Now, to provide a price list that will handle this configuration and 10,000 others would be rather time consuming not to mention confusing to the customer. For this reason we take the approach of reviewing the application requirements and then configuring a PLC for that application. Are there standard configurations...yes. Could we post them...yes. Chances are people will look at what is posted, specificially looking for what they need...if it isn't there, they will typically move on. By doing this, we give the customer personal attention in considering their application on its own merits. In response to Gravitar's post: Our statement isn't dishonest or misleading. It isn't in a plastic box...there isn't a back plane. It doesn't look like a PLC. It is directed towards the OEM that is trying to offer standard hardware. It is directed at the OEM that wants to generate additional revenue from service. It is directed at the OEM that is tired of supporting various controller platforms. It is directed at the OEM that doesn't want anyone to know exactly how or what they are doing. Our products look like a custom design rather than a traditional PLC. Our primary market isn't the end user, but the OEM. You are correct in that it wouldn't fly in the auto industry, primarily because each manufacturer has standardized on one supplier. Our products are not for large I/O installations, but rather small I/O process, machine, or mobile applications. We have dealt with some Fortune 500 companies but our primary focus is directed towards small to medium size OEMs. Each person will have their own preferences as to the type of company they will want to work with. Just as some will choose not to work with certain companies for whatever reason, I would be nieve to think that the same isn't true for us. My apologies for the tangent this thread has taken. God Bless,

T, Thanks for the information regarding Google Analytic. We have software that allows us to do the same thing. I had briefly looked at what they offer, and it didn't provide any additional benefit to what we currently use. The software we have allows us to keep track of all the information you had mentioned and also tracks information from Yahoo and MSN, not just Google. In reviewing our statistical information, I had noticed we were receiving more entries into our web site through our software page than our home page. This prompted me to redo our software page and treat it as a second home page. It isn't just about tracking the information but creating sales leads from interested parties. By requiring registration on a web site for product information, brings in that specific information, but there is more work required to weed through interested vs. just looking. By download an item to evaluate, they have shown interest and taken action. It is the taking action part that we go after. If someone took action to do something and therefore take time to evaluate something that is product specific, they are a more valuable lead. As such we concentrate on those that respond back. Don't get me wrong, we also look at the overall numbers to view trends as to what works and what isn't working. However, when someone willing provides their contact information, and in many cases their application needs, that lead is gold. The point that I was trying to make about site registration, is that the information obtained can be more specific than non-registered information. This is probably why some companies want you to register, in order to use their web site. For instance, look at these shopper cards that have been around for several years now. Without a card, the store can keep track of general information. But, when you obtain a card, you have to provide them specific information about yourself, and therefore, with the barcode on the card, they can track specific purchasing habits of each individual customer, rather than only being able to identify, that store 123 sells more pepsi products than store 456. They encourage you to obtain the cards by attaching discounts and specials with the card. As a result, the information that they are able to generate is quite valuable...some even sell their information to other companies. Same thing with a non-registered site. We can view URLs, track which pages people view and for how long, but we don't know if it is the same person. Look at a site like ESPN...when you register, they place a cookie on your computer to identify who you are from that computer specifically. For me personally, that gets to be a little to big brotherish. Our experience has been with our software download that those who are interested will respond by completing a form. Those that aren't interested, why inconvenience them. Our goal for those that are interested is to be on top of their request.

TW had asked the following: I had responded in kind to his question. I can't speak directly as to why some companies do what they do...but based on what I know, offered an observation as to why they are making you register. Basically, they want to know who you are. From our perspective, our information is there for anyone who wants to view it. When you become interested and want to evaluate software, etc...then we like to know who we are dealing with. Business has become so impersonal, so anonymous. What happened to the days where you actually had a relationship with your customers? Although old-fashioned, that is how we prefer to do business. I can't say that the motives of other companies are the same, but we like to know who we are working with.

If you look at a web site like Global Spec, you have to be registered to view their information. I believe what happens from there is that they are able to create specific information that can then be used by the advertiser. With a paid listing, you receive certain benefits. I remember registering on Global Spec and viewing some of the PLC manufacturer listings, and actually received calls from some of them...because I visited their listing / web site. This is not the same as what some of you were describing, however the last response had to do with information generated, and what do you do with it. By making you register on their web site, they can now keep track of who visits, what they visit and how long they are there. Without registration, all you can really tell is how many people visted and what pages the visited...but you don't know who. There are lists of information everywhere. Created by companies such as credit card issuers, telephone companies...with this information being sold to whomever wants to buy it. I'm not saying that all companies do this, but we are living in an information world today...verifiable sales leads are like gold. From our perspective, we receive requests after people have visited our web site. We have some decent rankings through Google for relevant search terms. Once they visit our web site, and download the software, they then require a password. In order to receive that password, they are required to complete one of our forms. We will contact the person, based on the information we receive. We will tend to pay more attention to companies that we view as OEMs. We receive many requests from students for the software. We also get many request from people looking for a simulator for other manufacturer's PLCs...typically AB. We tend to invest little time in these inquiries but still provide them with the password. We even get submissions that have nothing but garbage information. In that case, we will respond back, stating that insufficent information has been provided and that they would need to resubmit their form with proper contact information. By doing this, gives us a way to generate our own qualified sales leads.

I fully concur with both of you in the respect of obtaining product information. It should be easier to obtain the information. Our view has always been that our web site is a 24/7 brochure that also provides a basic customer support facilitator, available to anyone, anywhere at anytime.

I can understand your level of frustration in obtaining basic product information. Let me ask this, if you receive something that is of value for nothing and all the manufacturer asks in return is your contact information (not number of employees, sales figures, etc...just contact information) do you consider that to be asking too much? I ask, because we offer our software for download but password protect it, and require submission of one of our forms as registration. Once the form has been reviewed and verified, a password is emailed. The alternatives from our competition are: 1. Pay for the software and then receive it 2. Download a limited version demo package and then pay for the full version software.

Kurt, Is there anyone that you know that can back you up while you are gone...maybe someone from either Mr. PLC or plcs.net? Whereby, your company would contract them for the days that you are gone on training. Maybe pay them a minimal amount just for being available. Should their services be required, then you company would be billed at whatever their hourly rate is? Is this something that your managment would consider?

Mr. Ashton, When you start getting into a greater number of I/O, I would suggest a PLC instead. Smart relays offer limited internal capablities and programming capacity. They are what they say they are...a relay with some additional intelligence, compared to a relay itself. If there is a PLC you are familiar with, I would suggest looking at what they offered...you had mentioned Siemens, therefore the S7200 will be more than capable of handling your application. If you are open to other products, there are many to choose from, including ours. Much will depend on your application. Hope this helps. God Bless,

Steve, Thanks for the plug. To further expand on Steve's mention... We just recently updated our software page with better information about our programming software. (FYI - the download is free whether you purchase a controller or not. registration required) In further expanding on the Micrologix offer, I believe, but am not 100% certain that the free software is only good for the smallest unit. Therefore, if a larger controller is required, you would still have to purchase the software. To Plastics Dude: In previous posts, you had mentioned needing analog capabilities (specifically RTD). The controller you are considering, due to the inexpensive software does not offer any analog. You would have to use a different version Micrologix for analog and still a different Micrologix series if you wanted to incorporate RTD inputs. If you are looking to get your feet wet in learning PLC programming, you may want to further consider the manufacturer's hardware that will meet the requirements for your applications. Every manufacturer's software offers nuances that may or may not be found in other programming packages. If you are going to go with AD because of their inexpensive hardware...bite the bullet and purchase the software. Depending on which manufacturer you choose, some software is a one time purchase, while others require yearly maintenance fees / service contracts. In addition, some charge by number of users / site licenses installed. It is not just a simple cut and dry decision...You have to look at capabilities in relation to your needs. You should also consider manufacturer support...where do you receive your support from...distributor or manufacturer. How good or bad is the support? In being new to the field, you will probably rely more on support than you think...therefore, this should be a consideration as well. Remember, the people that provide support, don't work for free. To review... What are your goals? To learn PLC programming only or to select a PLC platform (manufacturer) to work with? Then, look at your needs. You will need to consider hardware capabilities, software capabilities, manufacturer support. Chances are your decision will be based on a combination of both learning and platform. There is a phrase..."penny wise, pound foolish" Don't just pick the least expensive starter kit because of price. If it won't meet your overall requirements what is the benefit in purchasing it? If you select something that doesn't meet your needs, you will have to purchase something else that will. Hope this helps. God Bless,

When we first started, in 1978, our primary competition in the I/O segment that we targeted was Modicon's 084. I don't seem to have any of Modicon's pricing, however, we offered a 16/16 solid state controller - the SK1600 for $580.00. This was an EPROM only unit that offered no serial ports or analog but was strictly digital I/O. A fully expanded unit was 32/32 and went for $980.00 We then came out with a relay version of the SK1600 that started at $290.00 for 8/8. This was 1985. In 1986 we introduced the SK1800 (aka - the Road Runner) with a 1.7 ms scan rate. A base I/O was 24/20 and could be ordered with either relay outputs or solid state. Pricing for a single board ranged from $595.00 to $765.00. Options include HSC, dip switch, battery backed ram, quadrature decoder. A fully expanded system with all the bells and whistles went for $1345 for the relay version (48/40) and $1905.00 for solid state. There was even a fast scan option that enabled the controller to process 1K @ 0.8 ms. Before the days of software, we offered a hex writer in the $500.00 range. With the acceptance of the computer for business applications, we introduced our first programming software in 1984. The cost was the same then as it is today...lol. It was before my time here, but I recall our first computer, an IBM, costing in the neighborhood of $6000.00 Peripherial equipment included an EPROM programmer for $495. In 1990 we introduced our first serial port controller - SK1600-RSA that included an analog I/O channel. It's starting price was $495.00 for 16/12 configuration. Two revisions later, it is our most popular controller today. In 1991, we introduced our first micro - The Smart-PAK - 6 in / 6 out for $245.00 I believe the Micro 1 from Idec was out ahead of us and it listed for somewhere in the neighborhood of $257.00. In 1992, we made the front page of IAN magazine by offering a stripped down version of the Smart-PAK for under $200.00. Back then, a controller for under $200.00 was unheard of. With the evolution of the PLC, it became more than just a relay replacer. With the advent of more analog capabilities at the smaller end of the market, for which we addressed with the Smart-PAK PLUS in 1996 and 1998 with temperature capabilities, new markets and opportunities were being created. In addition, you have an enormous cross section of controllers to select from. Back when we started, the primary emphasis was on the larger systems, so there was not the competition in the small end that there is today. Imports were few and far between. With the life cycle of just about any electronic product, pricing, both real and historical should have come down. You will typically have higher prices with a product transitioning from its introduction to growth phase. As the product matures, new entries into the market drive the pricing down. In the case of the PLC market, you also have to factor in other products that can be used in place of the PLC as another form of competition that adds pricing pressure to the market. With the advent of the smart relay, a stripped down micro that you can get for under $100.00 this holds true today. With regards to Allen Bradley, the predecessor to the SLC 500 were the SLC50, SLC100 and SLC150. I can't seem to find pricing for these units here, but I believe they offered both modular and fixed I/O units. Through many incarnations, Koyo's DL305 (as it is known today) has been around since 1983. Companies such as Siemens, TI and GE private labeled this controller. Pricing is probably at it's lowest due to the fact that Koyo now sells this product on a direct basis. As stated previously, pricing within the PLC market is probably at its lowest point in its history...due to competition, off shore manufacturing, alternative products and product advancments creating new markets for the products. A product that went from a black box whereby market acceptance lagged product development to what it is today, a universally accepted product...is like going from the dark ages to the computer age in 40 years. Hope this helps. God Bless,

Plastics Dude, Welcome to the world of PLCs and the forum. You have received some sage advise and suggestions so far. As stated previously, much will depend on your application and desired results as to whether a dedicated PID controller would be better suited over a PLC with temperature capabilities. The product that we offer that would be best suited for your application would be our Smart-PAK PLUS. www.entertron.com/smart-pak.htm You can download our programming software, which is ladder based, from our home page - www.entertron.com Should you have any questions, all our contact information is available online. Hope this helps. God Bless, Stephen

You may know them better as Aromat...for whom Panasonic purchased them. http://pewa.panasonic.com/acsd/

Here are a few links from Marlin P Jones & Associates with regards to a 15 volt DC power supply: http://www.mpja.com/productview.asp?product=14510+PS http://www.mpja.com/productview.asp?product=16002+PS http://www.mpja.com/productview.asp?product=16007+PS http://www.mpja.com/productview.asp?product=16007+PS One of the problems with wall supplies is that their output is never truly predictable, while the range can vary widely. Hope this helps. God Bless,