A Novice in need of Advice

[Bowman 0]

My family farms and has a country grain elevator. Over the past several years we have been remodeled the 30 year old facility. As part of the renovations we pulled new wiring and transitioned control of the elevator from a push button system to an Allen Bradley Panel View Plus 1500 and Micro Logix 1400 in order to control the different conveyors and grain legs off of a touch screen. I had the lead in the electrical side of the renovations and worked with a local electrician for the programming of the new system. In addition, a new tower grain dryer we constructed around 5 years ago runs off of a Panel View Plus 1000, so there are actually two systems in our elevator. There are still some bugs to work out and the potential for more uses of the system, as well as the user interface could be developed more, but working through another person is both expensive and impractical at times. How difficult would it be for a novice like me to learn how to work with the programming software? How difficult is the learning curve to overcome and what is the best way to do so? How did you learn? What expenses am I looking at in buying the software and what software do I need? I have always been a quick learner, and I am confident in my ability to pick up something new, but I still am rather ignorant when it comes to PLCs. Any advice? Thanks!

[Ken Roach 194]

Allen-Bradley products are generally considered easy to use but expensive to purchase and program. RSLogix 500 Micro is about $500, to program the MicroLogix controllers. FactoryTalk View Studio, for the PanelView Plus terminals, is around $700. And A-B charges for technical support, on an annual basis. You're probably doing better than you think supporting a local electrician who already has those tools and skills and can amortize them across a larger set of projects. While Forums like this one and PLCTalk.net have made it easier to learn from the user community, unless you're looking for another hobby, you are probably going to be better off having your ideas implemented by a programmer who has well-practiced skills with programming, debugging, and troubleshooting using these platforms.

[Ken Moore 23]

I agree with Ken, one off's are hard to justify. If you were going to have multiples of this system, then in house might make sense.

[BobLfoot 302]

I'll second the Ken's comments and add one more. If you have a clear scope of work for a modification you desire and think your local electrician is "milking the job" then post in the mrplc "things needed services offered" section and you'll get several of our users willing to quote you the job. You'll have to do your own vetting as this is a user forum and not "Angie's List" lol. But it would give you another option on price.

[PLCMentor.com 60]

ok I'll be the dissenting voice here. I think it would be worthwhile getting a basic understanding of your systems. You mentioned it's a family run operation so I would assume from that there is already a tendency to become jack of all trades just to keep things going. I would suggest that you start slow and see if it makes sense to put in the time and effort you would need to come up to speed. At the very least, I believe it would be worthwhile to have a basic understanding of the PLC system to better troubleshoot problems. With that in mind, I would suggest investing just in a copy of the PLC programming software to start. Possibly work with your electrician to learn some basic troubleshooting skills. I think most contractors would feel comfortable bringing you up to speed on the basics. Looking over the shoulder and asking questions is not a bad way to start your learning, but it sounds like you have already installed your system and its up and running. Startup is a great time to learn some skills. If they are still coming out and working on issues then take those chances to learn. I think your aim here should be to learn to support your systems not necessarily design a new one. If you get good at that then maybe move on to making small changes. Eventually if you enjoy it then maybe work with your electrician on a new system. That way they are there to assist you. I say if you enjoy it because, as the other guys have mentioned, it will not be more cost effective. It will be hard to catch up to the efficiencies of someone that works with the stuff every day and is able to spread the costs of equipment and software over multiple clients. In addition a solid electrical background is really necessary to design a system from scratch. Thats why I suggested just starting with learning to troubleshoot your systems and see where that takes you. Being able to use the PLC to determine why something wont run and get it back up quickly would be a skill that will pay off over time.

[OkiePC 14]

I think Ken's line about the hobby is spot on. Being a good electrician might make this an interesting thing to pursue differently. I would expect that with a few hours reading you could tune your bs meter so that you could pick a better integrator for your task, who can do the job well. If you hire someone, you should at least learn enough to know what to specify, and have at least a general understanding of his description of what he is doing. Ideally, I think you should ask around the nearest plant that uses similar gear and find a good ole boy who will work close with you and let you look over his shoulder a lot. And, RSLogixEmulate500 supports the ML1400, and there is the free version of RSLogix 500 Micro Lite which supports the Micrologix1100, so you could get a feel for what you are in for if you tackle this yourself. I don't recommend taking up FTView as your introduction to HMI programming. Hire someone and keep your hair. http://www.ab.com/linked/programmablecontrol/plc/micrologix/downloads.html Edited 19 Nov 2011 by OkiePC

[Mtech1 0]

Can I ask where your located? Maybe someone close by to assist you.

[Bowman 0]

Thanks for the advice everyone. You were spot on, PLCMentor, with much of what you have said. We tend to do everything across the operation ourselves, and if we don't know how then we learn. Its rare for us to hire anyone. I did all of the wiring for the entire elevator, and spent about an hour watching over our electrician's shoulder as he was troubleshooting; so I have some groundwork with the program. Foremost though, is our desire to be able to support our system, just like you said. Currently there is no need for me to start from scratch; I would be able to build from the logic already in place and learn from how it is already put together. We are located in northcentral Indiana, and the electrician we hired did well, but he is still a rookie at programming himself. There are still a lot of bugs to work out. And with the bill we have already paid him, the cost of software is not unreasonable if it gives us the freedom to keep things in house. I recognize the learning curve involved though, and to decide to take that step forward and buy the software, commits myself to learning it. How would I secure just "a copy" of the software? I assume there's licensing and registration that prohibits me from dabbling in it before making a purchasing decision, correct?

[Bowman 0]

Thanks, OkiePC. I'm going to look the Micro Lite up. Now here is my ignorance coming in to play though. Is the FTView Studio a suite of programs? I believe that is the software he was using. Would merely having the RSLogixEmulate500 limit me to only interacting with the ladder logic and not say, the user interface for instance? Or would it allow me everything I need to see what he has already designied and be able to build, tweak, and troubleshoot from there?

[OkiePC 14]

For the cost of your time to download three bloated install packages, and zero dollars, you can program a PLC and execute code with the exception of PID loops and messaging, although it is possible to connect RSLogixEmulate 500 to a real PV+ if I am not mistaken. You need: RSLinx Lite 2.5x RSLogix Micro Starter Lite RSLogix Emulate 500 Emulate 500 does not give you the user interface, although it does support your ML1400. All it can do is open a .rss file (logic created in the RSLogix 500 relay ladder logic development package). So, you can open a file, and put it in run mode, and I think you can tweak some debug files settings and scan time perhaps, but that's it. You have to use a pseudo driver called DH485-EMU in RSLinx which is the A/B all encompassing communications piece, but no worries, it doesn't care how you configure your .rss file serial port, but the "virtual" Micrologix will not appear in RSLinx until you start the Emulator, and then open the .rss file to put it "online" to the driver. I think you can have multiple files running in Emulate simultaneously. You must have RSLogix 500 of some flavor to see ladder logic and to create ladder logic. The freeware only supports the ML1100 and the ML1000. I think the ML1100 meets or exceeds the specs of the ML1200...never used those, only the 1500 and the 1000. I am rapidly abandoning the PV+ in favor of the Red Lion G3 which has free configuration software and extremely accurate emulator which can attach to real PLCs, (I have not tried to connect Crimson 3.0 Emulator to RSLogix Emulate 500.) So, as far as processing real world machinery, you can certainly use good programming practices to emulate and debug your code, then pay your licensed guy for a day to switch processor types, fix any address mapping (search forum for buffering inputs or I/O mapping) download it, and debug it for real. Then have him burn it to the relatively inexpensive memory module so you can clone it legally without a license. Make the software design intelligent and flexible, and you can have future changes already in place, to be revealed later when you add them to the HMI and enable their MCR bits while online with a right click "Toggle BIt"... See RedLion.NET and their offerings. Very slick, very quick, very powerful, very reliable HMIs. For your 2nd question... Nah, don't get me started on the marketig strategies and naming practices at PorktoryBalkView...and how they can take a simple and effective product and split it into 6 or seven revenue streams with "wandering" buzzword based names. Edited 20 Nov 2011 by OkiePC

[Shiner 2]

Noone has really mentioned it, probably because in this instance it is too late, but why did you have to go with AB? I tend to recommend systems based o n their application, and serviceability. In this case, a one off system where the user has lower means of supportability, and the project is not that large requiring integration of multiple pieces of equipment on the control side, why not go with an Eaton ELC controller or Automation Direct? I know the Eaton ELCSoft is about $100 and tech support including programming help is free, the HMISoft is about the same cost. The controllers and I/O cards on these units are very inexpensive compared to AB and with the free support and cheap software if it were my place that is probably the path I would have taken. Not to say that AB makes bad stuff, it is easy to learn and very versatile, but the price tag that goes with it is just not feasable for some end users.