Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0
lazy

Copying PLC Software

11 posts in this topic

Hi All. I was just wondering what everyone's opinion on PLC software was. For years we have had a constant battle with suppliers over software costs and then the necessary update costs etc. We would be a relatively small automation company and might spend 20,000 - 30,000 euros per year on PLC's, HMI's etc. and I don't understand the sales strategy that you must pay for the software in order to use the hardware. I always use the analogy that this is the same as buying a car and then the salesman asking you for 2000 euro for the key???? As we all know some company's give you the software when you buy the hardware and I have found that these company's seem to be the smaller company's obviously trying to get a bite at the market. Why can't the big guys do it??? I used to work for one of the big guys and I remember particular instances when the Automation mangers buddys wanted the software he would make them a copy saying that the Irish division could write a note stating the this is a "legal copy" ???? I find the whole software thing a real pain and have great respect for those who find ways around the copyright protection on the software... I only wish I had the intelligence to do so. I just wanted to find out what everyone elses opinion and experiences on this are. Any of the "big guys" who want to comment are also welcomed but please don't come bacl to me with software development costs, software improvement costs etc as this just doesn't work for me??? And don't get me started on PLC cables.....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sir, A question you are not the first to ask, and most certainly not the last to ask either. There are various thoughts behind the cost of software, depending on the company. The most common is that in order to develop software, you require engineers and therefore have created a cost center. Companies such as AB have turned a "cost center" in to a "profit center" by charging for software. Therefore, they are squeezing that much more out of their customers, who already support them by purchasing their hardware products. An even more interesting observation is the disparity in what some manufacturers charge. Some are well over $1K while others are in the $400-500 range. Our company is also of the opinion that you can't have a PLC without software, therefore account for the development costs as one. If you are paying for the software and support, then technically, you should be getting first class service. However, in many cases, that isn't true. The larger companies are more concerned at generating profits to appease the Wall Street analysts than providing the best service to their customers. It is unfortunate, but the customer is probably third on the list when it comes to level of importance. It is unfortunate when customers and employees rank behind shareholders and analysts. Don't get me wrong, I am all for capitalism and making a profit, but when greed is the primary motivator, there is a problem. Many of these larger companies could either give the software away, or atleast sell it for a lot less, and still make a very nice profit. Why aren't they? Because they don't have to. If they were to lose market share as a result of their software and support costs, then I seriously believe that they would either drop their price or give it away. And yes many of the smaller companies, mine included give away software and offer free support. I can't speak for others, but our reasons are to offer something, in this case software and support that should be included when you purchase the product initially. It is also a marketing tool...whereby in order to get something of value, you must give something away of value. A third reason, is merely to be different. We make a decent profit as a private company, so we are not beholden to the public shareholders and Wall Street analysts. Keep in mind, infringing on copyright laws, or pirating software is not the solution to this issue. If you are using a company's products, you should be doing it ethically. If you don't like what they charge, you have the option of going with a different product. Theft is never an option. Hope this gives you some insight. God Bless,

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1. what is preventing you from using small guys products? they would be happy to have another customer. 2. as for what is right and wrong, talk to your political representative. once you convince him that this is bad and they pass law that forbids selling of software, everyone's software will be given for free and you won't have to pay for it anymore. you will not find much to choose from anymore but it will be legal and probably in line with current product lines of those little guys. 3. another good tactic is to go berserk, start another revolution in form of open source project and offer comparable product for free just to sting the big guys. it requires some hard work but basically it can be done and it's legal. also you would be hero of millions of frustrated people waiting to see that day. 4. change job so you don't need to depend on someone else's software. there are so many jobs that still don't depend on software. 5. don't work at all, live on welfare or gifts. who says everyone has to work? one can get free meal at salvation army posts and warm shower every rainy summer. can't call someone lazy if they don't work at all, lazy people do work, they are just not as motivated...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I think that the argumants for that PLC and HMI pogramming software should be free are irrational. The expenses for developing the software is very substantial. They have to be paid for somehow. If you didnt pay for the software directly, it would have to be paid for indirectly, in other words the price of the hardware would be hiked up.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Jesper, So you develop a PLC our operator interface without software...what can you do with it besides being used as a paper weight? Likewise, you develop programming software and there is no PLC or touch screen...what use is it? The point being that they are not separate items that can be used independently of eachother, but are two pieces that make one complete item. The expenses to develop anything are substantial. The irrational part is this misconception that programming software development is separate from the development of the PLC...the software is a utility for the PLC...nothing more, nothing less. You can't tell me that software development costs would have to be recouped in higher hardware costs, because some of the manufacturers have significant hardware costs already...and it is these companies that already charge for their software. As I had stated earlier, other companies are able to charge you for software because they can. Nothing has threatened their market share or revenue stream to force them to do otherwise. For some, the surprise comes after the first year, when after they have purchased units and software, come to find out that they now have yearly support fees, if they want to continue purchasing the latest and greatest versions, not to mention access to customer support.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
entertron I dont disaggree with you there. Support should be available freely.Software updates should also be awailable freely if the updates are about fixing bugs. Some of the major companies actually have exactly that policy. Basically I am a software developer myself. I am programming PLCs and HMIs. My company doesnt "give away" the cost of my work. In stead our customers can chose which of the software/HMI packages I have developed they want to purchase based on the price they can pay and the functionality they need. If my software was given away freely, there would be a hole in our budgets. I can see how it would end up if the software was free (paid for by the "main" product) We would be selling only a very basic package with no extra functionality. Actually, I think that both my company and our customers are satisfied with how it is now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Jesper, Let me attempt to clarify my position. First, your employment to create programs for a PLC that in essence becomes someone else's solution or product is different than the scenario we are discussing. We are talking about the development of a product that has two parts - the hardware and the tool to program the hardware. You cannot have a PLC without some method of programming it, hence the "P" in PLC. Therefore, the software development is part of the overall development of the hardware. You are taking the programming tool, to develop a program for the hardware, that will make the hardware work as you require and therefore applying it to a specific application requirement. That is your company's objective. The development costs for software developers would not disappear. It is all in how you decide to allocate your costs. We view the software development as part of the entire development of the PLC, therefore do not separate it as other companies do. Those that are charging for their software, are either recouping a portion of their development costs, or creating a profit center to operate independently. Power to them that do. And there lies the answer to the original question. You said that you and your customer's are satisfied with the way it is now. You have accepted how they do business, and are therefore willing to do business with them on their terms. This is how the market works. There are enough people that are satisfied, and thus the status quo remains. On the other side of the equation, there are also many that are not satisfied, but have no choice but to pay the fees, because of their installed base, whether OEM or end user...it has become a cost of doing business. Will there be a difference in capabilities of programming software that you have to purchase as compared to programming software that is free of charge...most definitely. If you want all the bells and whistles, then go with the company that charges for their software. If you want a capable programming package that does what it is supposed to do...program the PLC, then go with the inexpensive or free package. Every PLC programming package is different in feel. Therefore, there will be likes and dislikes. It typically comes down to what one first learned on or is most familiar with, that the comparisons are made. Let me pose the following scenarios: With regards to your development services, do you charge your customers for your tools...being the software? I would believe that your company probably has a few different PLCs that you typically use in your projects. How do you allocate the cost of the programming software tools? This would be in essence a separate cost from your development service. If they wanted a system developed on a PLC that your company had never programmed, would you charge them for the cost of the programming software in addition to your programming service? On a final note, you must also look at persective...that of the customer. Are they a maintenance person that has various machines to service? Are they an OEM with a product whereby they don't use the software as much as a systems integrator. Your situation will assist in determining the best options available, and therefore your willingness (or unwillingness) to accept the conditions in doing business with the PLC vendor of your choice (or that is specified) I hope this better clarifies my previous post. God Bless,

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hi Stephen. Yes. If we have to follow a specification that doesnt fit our standard, then the customer will have to pay for all the associated expenses.Cheers. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Jesper, With regards to the third party products you are talking about...are you referring specifically to PLC programming software or other software used in conjunction with the PLC, such as HMI software like Wonderware? In order for their to be third party programming software, the PLC manufacturer would have to provide their operating source code for another company to affectively write based on the numonics of the firmware/operating system. I can see a company doing this only if there was some sort of guaranteed royalty.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I don't claim to be an economist but I did take the obligatory Econ class in college, and I'm familiar with a concept that's always present in a market economy.. "Charging what the market will bear". Way back in the day, A-B (let's use them for an example) charged SEVERAL THOUSAND for PLC-2, PLC-3, and PLC-5 software. Did their development expenses justify this? Who knows. It doesn't matter. The customer base found it profitable to have it, so they bought it. Then the SLC 500 came along. Getting into a little different market here. A-B charged around $1000 for the software. The customer base nonetheless found it profitable to have it, so they bought it. Then they came out with the Micrologix. Getting into an even lower-end market here. A-B charged around $400 for the Micro-only software. Guess what? People bought it. Naturally, SOME people found the prices oppressive, which is (one of the reasons) why companies like Automation Direct exist. I know lots of people that can't see spending top-dollar for their automation, so they keep companies like A-D busy. Some people see benefit in spending top-dollar for (arguably) top-notch products and support, so they keep the big guys busy. And let's not forget there's options for people that don't want to buy software AT ALL.. The micrologix 1000 can be programmed with a handheld programmer, and the Picologix (and related offerings) can be programmed right from the front panel.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I am sure that Siemens and AB has not helped these companies any way. On the contrary. Royalties are only necessary if the technology involved is protected by patents. Edited by JesperMP

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0