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balerjoe

Best Control Engineers?

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When is come to process controls. How makes the best programmers Mechanical Engineers or Electrical Engineers???? Just want to see what the Pros think.

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Neither? There are educations focused entirely on control engineering (I have studied at one). If I would have to choose though, I would choose EEs.

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I'd have to say that although electrical engineers would probably be better than mechanical engineers, electronics engineers would probably be better than both. I'd agree with TERdON though, someone who has studied control engineering would be the best bet. Even better if they've got experience of one of the other branches of engineering.

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When you learn control engineering you are forced to study the mechanics behind the controls. When you study mechanics most of the time all learned about the controls is the electrical part, the PLC stays a black box. Imho by learning controls you become more versatile in mechanics too, and if needed you can focus on a specific branch some more.

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I have seen good ones and bad ones from almost every engineering field. I have encountered two REALLY bad ones, one was a EE, and the other a CHEM E. I have to agree with the others, the ones who specialize in automation/controls reqardless of background, are usually the better ones.

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I completely agree. I have found some Computer Science types that were better at programming using things other than ladder logic. I know a couple of techs that learned programming to do small projects and ended up better programmers than some EE's we have had to work with. Usually the quality of the programmer is determined by the pride inside the programmer.

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What are some available control engineering schools? On line or Campus?

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In My Experience (Limited as it is), Electrical engineers are deemed better however again I have to agree with TERdON that Electronic Engineers are better. Particularly those with Microprocessor experience as the thinking and tools are often paralelled with Controls/Automation tools. One Interesting point though is What makes a good programmer? Often if a program works (and well) it's good enough for the programmer to earn appraisal from management but if ease of understanding / development / Maintainance was the goal and focus then other Engineers are where the kudos are from. On a bit of a Tangent here but what makes a good programmer? Spanner

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I believe the better programmers have came from the people who were working on Industrial Controls before programming, whether as a Maintenance person or an Electrician or Technician. Some of these people may have went back to school for an Engineering degree others have just self-learned, but in any case.. I think learning the in's and out's of what "works" BEFORE trying to program what someone does not fully understand (Except what they are told) normally makes a better programmer.

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Also being good at documenting what you just made is crucial in being a good programmer (I still have nightmares of a 5000-mnemonic program with lots of special ops, where the only documentation was a partial list of DM contents... - the rest had been lost over the years...) EDIT: BTW we have a saying here in Sweden "tänk efter före" - "think after before". That would be a great tip too. Plan what to do, before you start hacking. What are the potential problems? Try to find out what potentially would ruin the program. A well planned software also usually is easier to maintain. Edited by TERdON

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I studied Mechatronics, a hybrid course in Mechanical, Electrical and Electonics. I am not saying I am a good controls engineer, but this course has given me a good grounding of the key components in automation engineering. It provided me with good understanding of mechanical principle in fluid dynamics, pneumatics and applied mechanics. The electrical portion give you knowledge in electrical power, motor controls, 1-ph and 3-ph power. The electronics portion deals with microprocessor, embedded programming and included as part of the Mechatronics program is software engineering. Most importantly, in-all three branches of engineering, we were trained in control engineering (Bode-plot, etc.) IMHO, Mechatronics program is tailored specifically for engineers that want to go into the automation or controls field.

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I have an EE degree, i spent approx 2 lectures on PLC's throughout the whole degree. I worked for an international water treatment company, and Automation controls distributor and now run my own company. I have seen a number of excellent programmers and unbelievably bad programmers. I have seen some smart programmers become to smart for there own good and make the programming hard for the guys/maintenace people who will be looking after the machine. You know, the best programmers I know have a passion to understand and need to learn how the thing system works, they enjoy the challenge of the job. They are not just code mokeys, but guys who get an understanding of the process. Documentation is important and structure of the program is extremely important. Experience is the great teacher. Listening to others of greater experience aids in your development. Having the opportunity to examine a progrmmers code can teach you a few tricks as well. Keeping up to date with the various trends across the whole automaiton indusrty helps as well, the "CAN" (toilet) can be an excellent library to study new brochures in our busy schedules/lives. Being able to work under pressure helps a lot as well because you are inevitably the last on the job and bean counters and the elk think that you just connect (wire) to the black box (PLC) and hey it should be just work straight away (time is money - be prepared for more then a few late nighters). As said, pride is ones work leads to quality. I love this as well....

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The best control engineers are those that have 'the knack'. (see Dilbert) I have seen a lot of poor engineers of all degrees and I have seen good engineers that were economic majors and other non-related degrees. One of the programmers I have working for me is a theology major. However, he has the 'the knack' for programming and can certianly program a PLC and understands concepts way beyond those discussed here or on plcs.net. I have also found that those that have 'the knack, think of what they do as a calling or profession instead of a job. They keep current on their own. There are many questions I see on this and other forums that are so trivial. Those that ask these trivial question like scaling an analog input or trying to figure toggling a output with one button do not have 'the knack' and should probably find jobs in other fields. Someone with a degree in theology or economics can take their place as long as they have 'the knack'.

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Getting back to the original question: Neither and both. I think this question was answered very nicely above by many of you. What I wanted to add is: When I went to school i took a grad. course about software engineering. The instructor's first statement was "Engineers(of all types) are not taught how to write software!!" That started a most interesting debate, but in the end he was right. By the end of his course we were all enlightened. He use "Code Complete" as a text, but he concentrated on the thought process and methods of finding solutions for the real world. Anyway the concepts applied very nicely to process controls. Like some of the replies above i think programming process controls is sometimes an in between field of study. I think people think electricals have a leg up on it, but I've always felt thats probably because electricals came up with the hardware so they must know the software, right?? There are now some nice college programs coming out to address this field better. Time will tell how this affects things in the long run! And Peter regarding the 'trivial' stuff, Amen!!!

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I agree, everyone starts somewhere. As for PLC programming, i think once you learn the idiosyncracies, it's dirt simple and someone without any college education could do easily. Depends on that persons aptitude. But I would never replace an Engineer with a Technician. There is more to designing a controls system than just programing.

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Hi. In my opinion better are of course electrical. In most companies I know there are 2 different jobs, mechanic make very good his job, but usualy doesn't know what is a voltage, programming - no chance, electrical man must know all because if you make a steering and programming you must know how the example machine works. Usualy in my country I think best are automatics, they're educated in all faculities. But off course there are some exceptions. best regards

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Well this post wasn't intended to be trival. I have a current intrest in PLC programming. I've heard mixed reviews on this subject. Wanted to see the best routine to take. If any feel I'm too trival. By all mean don't waste your precious time posting. With this being said what is the best process control school out there?

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I do not feel there are any trivial post. But I can't fully agree with school being the way to get into the industry. But a lot of it depends on your personal situation. I began by working at a machine shop when I was 12. Running saws and lots of manual work. Slowly I learned to be a machinist, then learned about hydraulics and then how the mechanically engineer equipment. As the company got more into automation,around 17, I learned how to build control panels and started writing Plc programs. It wasn't until I was about 20 that I began programming full time. So it took me 8 years but I think my mechanical background makes me a better programmer. Plus I can put my 2 cents in when the projects are being developed and the mechanical engineers don't look at me like I don't have a clue about mechanical engineering. But when I started at that machine shop I had no idea I would be programming Plcs. I think at the time I wanted to drive a truck. If I had to come up with a plan to change careers I wouldn't know what would be the best way to do it.

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Code monkeys... I'll have to remember that

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Mixed reviews. I knew this would ruffle some feathers, good. I don't. I don't answer the trivial questions and I don't give students or beginners a hard time. I have stated my policy on the plcs.net forum a couple times. I leave the trivial questions to others. I think it is only right that a student that just learned how to scale a analog input should 'pass it on' by teaching the next student. I usually reserve my time for the PID, control theory, and motion questions.

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Experience makes you a good programmer

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Funny thing is that in 12 plus years working as an integrator, I have never met anybody who planned to be a controls/PLC engineer. It was something that one fell into, not entirely knowing what it was, or even what a PLC was. In my case, as a newly minted EE, it was a temporary thing to do until a “real” engineering job opened up at a defense contractor or some such. Of course, once, against all odds, with no help and only an instruction set manual as your guide, you make a new process run beautifully, then you are forever hooked. I would vote for the EE. The key training would be something like the microprocessor/robotics coursework that almost every EE takes. Assembly language programming, de rigor for microprocessors, seems to be the best analog to ladder logic. But visualizing electrical flow, a key orientation of the EE, seems to be the critical skill that makes a good controls guy/ integrator. Since a process never works the first time, the ability to visualize all possible reasons for failure, electrical, electronic or mechanical and fix it quickly makes or breaks a project. Sometime some computer science guys would be in the microprocessors class, and it was striking how they would never consider something like a loose ground wire as a possible failure point – Though we both are programmers, their mindset was critically different. For mechanical engineers, I would simply say that much of their worldview orientation is wasted – You have to think electrically and programmatically for the most part, to drive defined process values of Torque, water column, temp, etc. Also, the mechanical requirements are usually already determined by a general contractor or your client. Electrical power and controls are left to the “controls guys” The key trait is a stubborn, obsessive belief ( see a post about a theology student being a good controls guy – belief is critical when the problem seems hopeless) that there IS an solution to this problem and that you WILL be able to solve it after a couple of 20 hour days. Incredibly, it seems that you always do solve the problem, further reinforcing the magic of the moment when the process works – just as you confidently told everyone – GOD INTEGRATOR. Edited by pseudoquas

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hi, To my opinion being a controls engineer is a different discipline above all. When I decided to become a controls engineer I started to look for a job where I could learn as much as I can. At last I found my current position. After explaining my ideas to my boss, who is one of the pioneer control engineers in my country, he gave me a list of things to learn. To be honest I have graduated EE department, but Ihave to admit that being a controls engineer is more than being an electrical engineer. The list on the other hand included to have knowledge on any area. Knowledge on programming, dealing with microprocessors, mechanics, hydraulics&pneumatic, electronic design, project management and many personal qualifications. In fact I earn less money than my colleagues but insist to work because I have many things to learn here. As an answer to the question in the topic, I would answer according to my experiences. I think EE engineers could do much better than mechanical engineer. But desire to be a good controls engineer is the most important thing. Best Wishes.

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