Advice on choosing a PLC for a project

[mikeexplorer 7]

Awhile back I posted about my project which I am doing to learn how to program PLC's I took an unusual approach and built a model railroad layout using parts I scavenged from machines that were being scrapped. The PLC I am using now is a Micrologix 1000 and RSlogix Micro starter lite (free software) I have been posting my progress here.

https://www.nepaview.com/model-train-plc-project.html

I have learned enough so far that I was able to design and build a fire suppression system for plastic sheetlines. In this case I used a Click PLC since I did not need a lot of I/O and the project is only 14 rungs of code, although I will be building on it to add more features. I had originally planned the project with a Micro 810 PLC so I downloaded the CCW software and installed it to test it out and to get used to it before I started the project. CCW gave me problems right from the start with library errors and such. I uninstalled and re-installed and it made a mess of the laptop.

I then installed the software on a different computer and was getting errors (some different) but again, the software was useless. That is when I decided to change the PLC to a Click. That software ran flawless, but it is not as user friendly as RSlogix and it does not support simulation, which is a key item I want moving forward with my train project.

Back In June I attended a Rockwell Automation On Tour event which was very interesting with lab and demo units set up. There was stuff there that would be applied for work projects such as some of the newer drives they have, and they also had a Micro series PLC setup as a demo. However, they even admitted that demo unit wasn't working well, and yes it was because of CCW.

I did get to talk about my project with one of the engineers there and the place that held the event is a reseller and they told me they can sell to an end-user which is good. He also had some ideas for me as far as how I was coding to improve my skills and how to solve some issues I am having with the project.

 

I want to replace the Micrologix 1000 with something better. Aside from the fact that this PLC is obsolete and I have already had to fix it twice for output problems (replace relays) The amount of I/O is fixed and it does not support any analog I/O. With my experience with the Click PLC, I discount that already because the software is cumbersome and does not support simulation. I did eventually get the demo unit with CCW to work and had some time to write some test code, but from my understanding, the free version does not support simulation, only the developer version. Researching online, a Micro 830 with a few add on modules would give me what I need.

Another option is to go with a Micrologix 1200, The RSlogix for that PLC is not free, but not expensive either and it is an environment I am used to with the starter lite version.

Another option I am considering is an Automation Direct Do-More BRX PLC. The software I downloaded already and plan to kick the tires on some test code and it supports simulation, but maybe its just because I am used to RSLogix, so far it seems a bit cumbersome to use.

I requested quotes from the distributor,  to go with the Micro830 series would cost about $1,300, but if I go with CCW Developer, I would probably have to put it in a virtual machine since the software seems so finicky, and I have read other peoples posts about the software which makes me question going this route.

The Micrologix 1200 option is a bit more, $2,000 but in my experience with RSLogix Micro Starter Lite, its bulletproof and has never caused me any headaches. I would assume the Starter Lite version ($155 ) would be the same, just able to support the 1200 - 1500 series PLC's

 

Thoughts?

 

Mike

 

[Joe E. 167]

Our experience with CCW is close to yours. We had fewer errors on installation, but programming the 800 series PLCs was very cumbersome.

I can't speak to the Click PLCs. My (limited) experience with Automation Direct PLCs is with the DirectLOGIC line and it was NOT positive. It seemed to do ok for digital I/O but the analog I/O modules were unstable and unreliable.

If you're going to graduate to a paid version of RSlogix 500, I would go with a MicroLogix 1400 instead. It supports Ethernet programming and HMIs so you don't need any "special" cables or adapters. It supports MicroLogix expansion I/O and some of the base units come with built-in analog I/O.

Edited to add:
I also strongly support the use of virtual machines. I've had a number of software packages not play well (with others and/or on their own) and cause problems with my laptop that were difficult to resolve. For example, RSView Studio crashed in such a way that I could neither re-install nor un-install it. I was left with either doing a clean install of Windows (a royal pain on a company laptop) or using VMs. I chose VMs and never went back.

 

Edited 7 Oct 2019 by Joe E.

[NevergoldMel 38]

I like the click PLCs, I hate the DirectLogic PLCs.
With the latest firmware the Click's can do PID loops and as far as I/O count they can handle EIGHT modules!

Support for reading and writing to Ether/IP assemblies with the ability to create an Ether/IP server on them that will create it's own EDS file so you can use them as Remote I/O for controllogix PLCs as seamlessly as using Allen Bradley's own equipment and if you're just starting out on AB's platform it is actually easier.

[Michael Lloyd 77]

I'm not a fan of the CCW software. The hardware seems to be pretty solid. <insert really long rant about how dumb it is to design crap software for good hardware here>

Direct Logix used to be 8 bit. I don't know if they ever got past that. I suspect they did. They used to be robust. I've seen them mounted in a box on a 1,100hp compressor skid, visibly vibrating, in a building that had to be over 100 degrees in east TX humidity and they were rock solid.

Micrologix 1100 has an ethernet port. Personally I prefer ethernet over serial for connectivity.

Have you considered a micro controller and multiplexing the outputs? Something like an Arduino but more robust. The software, generally speaking is free, The learning curve may or may not be steep (but I'll bet there's a ton of code out there that would get your train rolling :) TI has a pretty nice demo board for their micro and it's a beast. Really fast. Fast enough for someone to build an electronic lead screw for their lathe with it: 1st video of the series here.

[mikeexplorer 7]

23 hours ago, Joe E. said:

Our experience with CCW is close to yours. We had fewer errors on installation, but programming the 800 series PLCs was very cumbersome.

I can't speak to the Click PLCs. My (limited) experience with Automation Direct PLCs is with the DirectLOGIC line and it was NOT positive. It seemed to do ok for digital I/O but the analog I/O modules were unstable and unreliable.

If you're going to graduate to a paid version of RSlogix 500, I would go with a MicroLogix 1400 instead. It supports Ethernet programming and HMIs so you don't need any "special" cables or adapters. It supports MicroLogix expansion I/O and some of the base units come with built-in analog I/O.

Edited to add:
I also strongly support the use of virtual machines. I've had a number of software packages not play well (with others and/or on their own) and cause problems with my laptop that were difficult to resolve. For example, RSView Studio crashed in such a way that I could neither re-install nor un-install it. I was left with either doing a clean install of Windows (a royal pain on a company laptop) or using VMs. I chose VMs and never went back.

 

The HMI I am using for the project is a AutomationDirect Cmore which does not have Ethernet. One of the  items I got was this stand with a Proface HMI. I don't have the software for Proface and when I looked into it, was big $$$. SO I bought the Cmore to learn to work with HMI. (it was inexpensive)

Now I might be able to get my hands on a used working Panelview from work. They are scrapping a mixing machine, if that is the case, I might just look at the 1400 since it would have an Ethernet port.

 

[mikeexplorer 7]

21 hours ago, NevergoldMel said:

I like the click PLCs, I hate the DirectLogic PLCs.
With the latest firmware the Click's can do PID loops and as far as I/O count they can handle EIGHT modules!

Support for reading and writing to Ether/IP assemblies with the ability to create an Ether/IP server on them that will create it's own EDS file so you can use them as Remote I/O for controllogix PLCs as seamlessly as using Allen Bradley's own equipment and if you're just starting out on AB's platform it is actually easier.

 

I used a Click PLC for my first work-related project shown here. In this case I did not need a lot of I/O and the project was originally planned using a Micro 810, but after all the headaches of the software, I changed it to use the Click. Since the software does not support simulation, I first wrote this project in Rslogix Micro starter lite and simulated it to make sure I have all the conditions I wanted, then translated it for the Click. This project only required 14 rungs of code, I may be adding to it soon with a few additional sensors.

I do not need PID loops for my project, and using the online configuration wizard, I can get enough I/O for my train project no problem on the Click. I just think for a larger project like my train project, the software is a bit cumbersome and does not support simulation.

[mikeexplorer 7]

20 hours ago, Michael Lloyd said:

I'm not a fan of the CCW software. The hardware seems to be pretty solid. <insert really long rant about how dumb it is to design crap software for good hardware here>

Direct Logix used to be 8 bit. I don't know if they ever got past that. I suspect they did. They used to be robust. I've seen them mounted in a box on a 1,100hp compressor skid, visibly vibrating, in a building that had to be over 100 degrees in east TX humidity and they were rock solid.

Micrologix 1100 has an ethernet port. Personally I prefer ethernet over serial for connectivity.

Have you considered a micro controller and multiplexing the outputs? Something like an Arduino but more robust. The software, generally speaking is free, The learning curve may or may not be steep (but I'll bet there's a ton of code out there that would get your train rolling :) TI has a pretty nice demo board for their micro and it's a beast. Really fast. Fast enough for someone to build an electronic lead screw for their lathe with it: 1st video of the series here.

I am going the PLC route for the project because I am using it as a learning tool to write PLC programs. The trains provide my "real-world" example rather then using a training kit with buttons and lights. Already I have had unexpected events such as glitchy inputs, slower then expected movement of trains and so forth. This makes me account for the unexpected such as a sluggish cylinder, or if a sensor is not made in time, and so forth.

Mike

 

[Joe E. 167]

I used some C-More HMIs at a previous job and we had great results from them. They communicated with SLC 5/04 PLCs via RS232. The ML1400 has an RS232 port as well as Ethernet, so you should be able to use the C-More with it if you go that route.

My previous experience was so good with them that I would have tried the newer C-More panels here too but we already had such a diverse installed base that I didn't want to add another platform into the mix. We've almost eliminated the old QuickPanel (TCP, Proface) HMIs and we're down to 1 Uticor Tough Panel (or maybe it's a Power Panel...). The rest are Red Lion G3, Siemens MP/Comfort, and A-B PV/PV+. I remember the C-More being easier to program than any of the ones we have here now and they were at least as reliable.

[mikeexplorer 7]

19 hours ago, Joe E. said:

I used some C-More HMIs at a previous job and we had great results from them. They communicated with SLC 5/04 PLCs via RS232. The ML1400 has an RS232 port as well as Ethernet, so you should be able to use the C-More with it if you go that route.

My previous experience was so good with them that I would have tried the newer C-More panels here too but we already had such a diverse installed base that I didn't want to add another platform into the mix. We've almost eliminated the old QuickPanel (TCP, Proface) HMIs and we're down to 1 Uticor Tough Panel (or maybe it's a Power Panel...). The rest are Red Lion G3, Siemens MP/Comfort, and A-B PV/PV+. I remember the C-More being easier to program than any of the ones we have here now and they were at least as reliable.

I have had no issues with the Cmore interfacing to the ML1000. If I need a longer cable I can just make it myself. The ML1400 looks like it has the same type RS232 port so it should not be a problem. I may be getting my hands on an Allen Bradley Panelview that might fit the stand I have so I may try to see how that works out. The Cmore panel I bought does not have Ethernet so serial is the only way to go for now.

Mike

 

[Joe E. 167]

The ML1400 I have sitting on my desk has a 9-pin d-sub port and their version of the round mini-DIN connector along with the RJ45 for Ethernet. It should be easy to find/make a serial cable to connect to it. If your ML1000 talks to it, the ML1400 should as well.

[mikeexplorer 7]

I will ask for a quote for the ML1400, if its not much more then the ML1200 then Ill probably get that one. May not need the Ethernet port now but might be useful in the future.

Mike

 

[Michael Lloyd 77]

I think that you'll find the ethernet port is pretty handy for dumping or editing a program. Serial works but ethernet is faster. CMore panels are pretty nice. I couldn't get any interest in them started here and I was only able to try one.

[mikeexplorer 7]

I am awaiting the price for the Micrologix 1400. If I choose that one over the ML 1200 I won't need the 4 channel analog combination module since analog I/O is built in to the 1400.

It might offset the cost of going with the ML 1400.

I found online a schematic for the Lionel CW80 transformer so I know where I have to make modifications for the PLC to control the throttle. It also means I can tap into the three buttons on the unit to control direction, bell, and whistle.

Mike

 

[NevergoldMel 38]

If I remember right the "Analog Inputs" on the ML1400 are 0-10VDC. 
Most instruments are going to be 4-20ma.

[mikeexplorer 7]

I got pricing information. The ML 1400 is $1,200.00 verses the ML 1200 $1,030.00. The ML 1400 has built in analog I/O (0-10VDC) so I would not need the 4 channel analog module which costs $424.00 So actually it would be cheaper to go with the Micrologix 1400. I would also gain the ethernet port. Although my HMI does not have ethernet, I may just go ahead and purchase a Cmore panel that has it and retire this one. AT the very least I can keep the computer connected to the PLC all the time and leave the serial connection for the HMI.

What I actually need is analog output so I can control the speed of the trains. I found a schematic of the CW80 transformer online that someone hand drew out, and the throttle input is

0 to 3.3VDC. What I will probably do is use a voltage divider so I cannot exceed 3.3VDC and possibly damage the transformer. This would also give me the full scale on the analog output.

I could use the analog input as a feedback to verify the transformer is outputting power to the track, in the event of a derail, if there is a short, the transformer shuts down and blinks the power light and stays that way until you turn the throttle to zero and then back on again as a reset. This way the PLC will know if the transformer shut down.

The output to the track as a weird AC wave, I can build a bridge rectifier with filters and then scale it down to 0-10VDC for one of the inputs. (I do have experience in building electronic circuits)

So in my case the fact the analog I/O is DC voltage is fine and would be better for my project.

Mike

 

[mikeexplorer 7]

I also went back on AutomationDirects site and discovered I can get an Ethernet port for my current HMI panel for around $50 and add it on. The stand I have for the HMI is already cut out for the HMI panel so I don't have to modify it again.

 

Mike

 

[mikeexplorer 7]

My local Rockwell dealer was able to process the order with a credit card since I am purchasing as an end-user. I decided on the Micrologix 1400. I also purchased the RSlogix Micro starter since it is software I am already familiar with (the free lite edition) I have worked with this software quite a bit and have found it to be rock solid.

The train transformer takes a 0 - 3.3VDC input on the wiper for throttle. I think it would be a better choice to build a voltage divider so the full 10VDC output from the ML1400 will give a 3.3VDC output maximum. This would prevent over driving the transformer input in the event the analog output goes too high. This way 100% (10V) would be 100% throttle.

I can also use one of the analog inputs to sense the transformer output. This will require rectifiers and also a voltage divider. This can help me sense a derailment. If the transformer detects an overload or a short, it shuts down. This will be no problem as I have done electronics since I was a kid.

The ML1400 has ethernet built in and I can buy a module to add ethernet to my Cmore panel. I do have one of those small 24VDC switches that was scavenged from a panel that was scrapped. I can make my own cables as they should just be standard ethernet cables.

So as far as the computer goes, all I need is say a USB to ethernet to interface to the setup? I want to keep the built in ethernet port tied to my network and internet.

Mike

 

[PLCMentor.com 52]

Mike,

Sorry to be late getting into this but I dont think I saw where anyone mentioned online programming.  The 1100 and 1400 can and the 1200 and 1500 cannot.  Doesnt make much difference with your train at home but it can make a big difference when working on an operating piece of equipment or process.  Being able to make small changes without taking down a system has always been a must for me.

[mikeexplorer 7]

14 hours ago, PLCMentor.com said:

Mike,

Sorry to be late getting into this but I dont think I saw where anyone mentioned online programming.  The 1100 and 1400 can and the 1200 and 1500 cannot.  Doesnt make much difference with your train at home but it can make a big difference when working on an operating piece of equipment or process.  Being able to make small changes without taking down a system has always been a must for me.

 

It was not mentioned in the thread, but that will no doubt be an advantage to this PLC. I purchased the Micrologix 1400 and three I/O modules. The parts arrived yesterday. I am still awaiting them to setup the rockwell online user id so I can download the RSlogix Micro Starter.  There is no doubt some things I have to learn about the new PLC before I even resume my programming. I still have to make an order with Automationdirect for parts. (terminal blocks and such) it turns out the HMI panel I have can do Ethernet with a $50 add in module which I plan to purchase as well as a small din Rail Ethernet switch. This will provide a better connection between the PLC and the Cmore HMI and I should be able to program either of them without unplugging and plugging in USB or serial ports. I am also going to buy a wire marking label maker as there will be more wiring involved and I need to keep track of it.

Of course the next step is I have to tear down what I built and re-do it with the new PLC and additional I/O I now have available.  Problem now is I work a goofy 12 hr shift so spare time is more limited to work on this project

I have been looking over the suggestions posted above and I think I have a better plan in mind for writing the routines in a better way. One good thing is this PLC has more memory so some limitations I had with the Micrologix 1000 won't apply now. More variable data to work with (bit values, timers, etc) and I can have more ladder routines. 

When I wrote the last working routine (The main and side interchange program) I noticed in the printed report, the memory was over 60% filled which told me I would not have the memory space for all the routines I had planned to write. This was a deciding factor to make the investment to upgrade. Although I am using this as a learning tool, in the end this project will be used to control my around the wall layout that I have in my living room. SO there is an end result of my efforts.

 

Mike

 

 

[mikeexplorer 7]

I have been working on the new build of the project when I can find time. The wiring will be cleaned up once I can power it up and test it to make sure everything is good.

I added the ethernet module to my Cmore HMI. Next step will be to re-do the track layout as a lot electrically will be different.

 

Mike

 

[PLCMentor.com 52]

That is a quite impressive bit of hobby work!   No that's just an impressive bit of work.  Well done!  You'll have to post some of your screen shots to let us know how you are incorporating your HMI.

[mikeexplorer 7]

20 hours ago, PLCMentor.com said:

That is a quite impressive bit of hobby work!   No that's just an impressive bit of work.  Well done!  You'll have to post some of your screen shots to let us know how you are incorporating your HMI.

I have been posting pictures and some videos on my website, located here:

 

https://www.nepaview.com/model-train-plc-project.html

These videos shows the HMI screens:

https://youtu.be/PCPA4QjvoE0

https://youtu.be/vrGwERqydGI

I started a new page with my "Second Generation" build with the Micrologix 1400. I do plan on improvements to the HMI screens. The way I was doing the alarms was not the best way and when I hit a wall with my programming and asked for help here and another fourm, I have a better approach in mind. Of course this means re-writing most of my code but that is fine since I am learning. I purchased RSlogix Micro Starter and installed it so its ready to go once I power up and connect to the PLC.

The "chatter" i describe in the second video I will be writing debounce code to eliminate it.

Mike

 

[mikeexplorer 7]

I got as far as powering up and getting a heartbeat on the PLC. I am new to using Ethernet for a PLC but with some work I got communications up and running between the computer, PLC, and the HMI panel. What I found odd is going online, the PLC didn't seem to recognize the additional modules and I couldn't add them or auto-detect. Went offline and added them in manually, then I defined some of my elements I wanted (say 50 B3 values, 200 timers, etc...) wrote that back to the PLC and then it showed up.

Now RSlogix shows the modules and they appear to be ok, I togged one output on slot 3 and the output did come on the module. I had to connect the button box to the unit since it is the safety circuit (emergency stop with reset button) This way I can start toggling the outputs to make sure the relays close for the track switches and power. The safety circuit will drop the 24 volt control voltage and de-energize all outputs if the emergency stop circuit opens.

One thing that seems weird is looking at the screenshot of RSlogix, it shows the analog input as I:0.4 ? not IV0 ?? Same with the output.

 

Mike

 

[pcmccartney1 127]

PLC is PROG Mode, change it to RUN Mode and try again.

[Michael Lloyd 77]

Quote

 it shows the analog input as I:0.4 ? not IV0 ?? Same with the output.

That's correct. Also, you're looking at the Analogs in Binary. Change it to Decimal to see the individual IO points