220vac INPUT EXPANSION MODULE

[Bering C Sparky 7]

Hello, I have a project I am putting together that will require inputs from 220 volt control. (I want to use Micrologix 1400 for the application) I would like to do this without adding relays if possible. I have looked on Rockwell's sight to see if they have a 220 volt expansion module but dont see anything, which seems odd considering most of Europe is 220 volt. Thought maybe someone on this Forum could point out something for me, maybe I am missing something on Rockwell's sight. I see output modules rated for max of 265vac but the highest input module I find is 132vac max. Maybe specturm or other??? Thanks in advance for any reply BCS

[Bering C Sparky 7]

Well I see no one wanted to touch this one, and now I see why. After an extensive search and a return call from an associate overseas, who confirmed that they only use 24v for micrologix products, I see that this is not going to happen. The machines (5 total) that I needed these for currently have limited cableing back to the MCC where I have a M.L. 1400 set and running the current application we are using already. This 1400 was originally installed only for analog speed control and feedback signal for HZ, machine running or not & input to count fish ran and cut. Later they we came up with the idea to incorperate motor overload indication (motors have 220vac overload circuit) (machines are 20 years old from germany) I only had 3 spare conductors from each machine at this point so I installed Siemens Logo's with 8 -230v inputs and used 3 of the relay ouputs and used these in binary sequence to give me a total of 7 usable combinations at in the Logix 500 program. Now of course that they have this they want more and more, so I was hoping to use a 1400 in each machine and connect all to network over ethernet and then the posibilitys are endless. I found some off brand Logic controlers that do offer 220vac input but dont think I would be able to comunicate with these from F.T.M. E. with a PV+ 1000????? If anyone has the answer if other brand plc can be used with A.B. HMI, I would be gratful if you could share your knowlage with me. (I have never tried or see this done before) I will reserch more on it but as it stand I think I am going to have to go old school and pull lots of copper to mcc and install a bucket full of relays in each machine to get them what they want. Thanks for reading. BCS

[panic mode 246]

The problem is with wiring, 3 wires (unshielded?) is not going to work for any type of fieldbus (if short distance and not noisy you may try low speed RS485 like ADAM modules). If you ask me, just run Ethernet cable and your system is flexible again. getting I/O for European voltages is easy - look at European products, for example something like: http://www.wago.us/products/components-for-automation/modular-io-system-ip-20-750753-series/digital-input-modules/overview/ that also adds granularity/flexibility. getting them to work with AB PLC, means fieldbus (EthernetIP, DeviceNet, whatever). If I recall correctly, ML supports EthernetIP so your remote IO need EthernetIP bus coupler.

[Bering C Sparky 7]

Hello Panic Mode, thank you much for the reply, I guess my wording was a bit off in my last post, we just offloaded in Dutch Harbor and are headed back to sea. I have been up for about 40 hrs straight so I am not thinking very clearly. The three wires I mentioned, I already used, connected these between the outputs of the LOGO that has 240vac inputs and then to 3 inputs on the 1400 located remotely in the mcc room. (I did not mean I wanted to use these for communication purposes) I used the binary combination of these three wires to make 7 different possible combinations in the Logix500 program. (that way I am actually getting 7 inputs by using only 3 wires. 001 = B3:0/0 010 = B3:0/1 100 = B3:0/2 011 = B3:0/3 110 = B3:0/4 101 = B3:0/5 111 = B3:0/6 What I wanted to do was install a 1400 in each Baader machine and connect them each to the network via ethernet. That way each machine would have its own logic controler and I could get rid of the copper cable that now runs from each machine to the existing 1400 in the mcc room. Thank you very much for suggesting the Wago, I will check it out when I get up tonight. I was very surprised to see that there was no 220 input for Micrologix. Being stuck on this ship for most of the year I dont really get to see alot of differernt types of systems other than what we have here on the vessel or colaborate with other people in the trade. Most of our stuff is Allen Bradley Ranging from Micrologix, SLC's, Plc-5 and Control Logix. We also have a few old Siemens and Idec Plc's and I usually put the little LOGO controlers anywhere you would use timer-relay combinations for stand alone starter panels or small control needs. If you dont mind I would like to throw a few more questions at you to better understand what I will be looking at. How does the Wago fit into the scheme of things and tie in so inputs and outputs function with F.T.M.E.? Does the Wago just act as remote I/O or is it a logic controler in its own right? If it is remote I/O can I use Micrologix as the main processor or will I need to have something like a control logix platform in order to use it? Can you give me a breif description of how you would arrange this to have I/O in each machine, as well as the mcc room ( I use the existing 1400 in the mcc for speed control for a couple additional machines other than these 5 I mentioned) and make it all tie into a PV+. Not trying to cheat by getting all the answers easy, but I am grateful for any help that will point me in the right direction and speed up the process. Sorry if these questions seem a bit dumb, it is just uncharted territory for me. I never had any formal training or school for PLC and basicaly taught myself what I do know just by trial and error. Luckly I work at a company that gives me free reign and is more than happy to give me full access to there equipment. (I have also gained a good deal of knowlage from MRPLC.COM and good folks like yourself, over the past couple of years this site has helped me out many times) Regards, BCS Edited 14 Mar 2014 by Bering C Sparky

[chantecler 15]

Micrologix 1500 uses compact I/O modules and the 1769-IM12 is a 240Vac input module

[Bering C Sparky 7]

Hello Chantecler, Thanks for the info, ML1500 would work. I did many internet searches for 220vac inputs for micrologix and the 1769 never came up, but once you pointed it out I found it right away. Thanks. After reading Panic modes post I started looking a the Wago and also Point I/O and others and started looking how to configure these with EtherNet/IP. I came accross an old post on PLCS.NET that had a rather heated argument between a poster and a couple of current MRPLC.COM members. The poster was convenced he could use the Wago with an SLC or ML using ethernet and the others were trying to convince him this was not right as ML or SLC did not support EtherNet/IP. They were saying Control or Compact Logix was the solution if you wanted to do this. This took place in 2006 so not sure if this is still a valid point or not today. I will keep looking into it when I get a chance. ( Actually having to work is getting in the way of my PLC research funtime.) I just found an artical on Opto 22 that seemed interesting also, and want to look at that some more as well. Thanks again for all the input and if anyone else has something to add, I am all ears. (Remote I/O - Configuring EtherNet/IP - Can or cant be done with ML - Other - anything you think might be a valid solution to what I am trying to accomplish) BCS

[panic mode 246]

the point is - there are plenty of options out there and you are not locked to one brand. Certainly there is plenty of other products in various formats, IP rating etc. if this is one machine, then it's shape/size must be defined and adding new cable/wiring should not be difficult (and there are wireless options too). imho going to ML1500 is a step back (no ethernet or online editing) but on a old machine this is probably not high on a priority list anyway.

[chantecler 15]

If a small controller is an option for you instead of a micro and you feel comfortable with Logix5000 I particularly love the 5370 L2 line (like 1769-L24ER-QB1B, 1769-L24ER-QBFC1B or 1769-L27ERM-QBFC1B) so you go with newer technology instead of "stepping back" to MLX1500

[Bering C Sparky 7]

Thanks again for the input, Yes it seems that is the way I will have to go if I dont find something. Seems there are many more options for remote I/O with Control or Compact Logix. Seems that what RA offers in ML that is ethernet compatable doesnt have option for 240vac inputs, and what they offer that has 240vac input is not ethernet compatatable. Thought this was going to be a simple thing, and it would be if they had a 220 input mod for 1762. (but like my grandfather always said "If a bullfrog had wings he wouldnt bump his butt") Thought I had stumbled onto something when I looked at the Micro850 but doesnt look like thats going to work either for what I am trying to do. I started another thread on the Opto 22 for Remote I/O. They make statements on there website that it is compatable with ML. I will call them on Monday and try to get some specifics. My ambition far exceeds my knowlage of all the differtent products out there and the different communications that can tie them all together, but the challenge is what makes it interesting. BCS Edited 15 Mar 2014 by Bering C Sparky

[JRoss 84]

It's my understanding that the Micrologix is not suited to using remote I/O over Ethernet/IP because it uses explicit messaging (you initiate send/receive), which means the connection isn't as fast or reliable as it usually desired for I/O. The CompactLogix and ControlLogix, on the other hand, also allow the use of implicit messaging, which is intended for exactly this sort of application. How much 220V I/O are we talking here? If it's only a few inputs, I'd just use relays. If it's enough to consider replacing the PLC, then CompactLogix is a good option. If that's too expensive, there are 240V input cards for the Micro850 line. There are of course many other PLC options, but both of these talk Ethernet/IP, so you can network them with your existing MLX 1400.

[Bering C Sparky 7]

Hello Jeremy, I appriciate your feedback, Price is always a concern, Not so much from my point of view, I want it done the best way possible. But the bean counters in corporate will always question every expenditure, it is always a tug of war between the vessel and office and I am usually the one in the middle hanging over the pit of mud. Have pretty much decided that the CompactLogix is the way to go, just need to compare what is best set up and cost efficient for the application. Install one Logix controller in MCC and put Remote I/O in each machine. OR I see on RA's site the 1769-L23E-QBFC1B Packaged Controler W/ Embedded I/O. Maybe just install one in each machine with a 1769-im12 expansion card for the 220 input. that way each machine stands alone in a sence but HMI and Scada can send and recieve information to/from them all over network. Have looked online a bit for pricing but it is like a shotgun blast, (all over the place) will call our RA distributor Monday and see. I am not actually turning the machine on or off via the PLC this function is left to the operator at each machine. The Plc is more for the technician to remotely adjust speed and get actual Hz feedback as well as running or fault status and for indication of what exactly is wrong when there is a fault. Before adding this they had to take machine apart and change sprockets to vary speed, and if a motor thermal opened they only got 1 small led indication of a fault but still had no idea where or what the fault was. (220v circuit daisy chained through each component in the machine) This slowed production to a crawl at times. Adding relays and just pulling more conductors to the machines from existing plc in mcc would certaily be more cost effective but I would like to make this as clean an installation as possible. I am a bit curious about your comment on the Micro850. I looked at this on RA's site but everything I read said it was a stand alone system and not intended to work with Logix or Factory Talk. If we were to use the Micro would it have to be set up similar to the Opto with Message blocks or can these actually comunicate with each other? Thanks for the information, this site and the web are my only link to information. I dont have this equipment onboard (YET) to put it on a bench and try it for myself. BCS

[chantecler 15]

Hi BCS, Just want to point out that in the case you chose the CompactLogix option, take into account that the 1769-L23E-QBFC1B has LOW-RESOLUTION analog I/O's, relies on a battery to store the program and has very limited expansion capability. The 1769-L24ER-QBFC1B is much better. it's like an improved version of the one you selected. Opto22 is cheaper and reliable (modules are guaranteed for life) and the software is free. I have used opto in two temperature supervision and registration projects of about 40-zone each with up to three racks networked together. BUT, on the other hand, opto has a very unique way of thinking and programming that I have never felt very comfortable with, programs are hard to troubleshot and for some reason it takes me twice as much time to program an opto than it takes me to program an AB. Hope this help

[Bering C Sparky 7]

Hi again Chantecler, Any information I get helps, its nice to be able to get input and opinions from people who have been there and done that. I have not had much time today to do any additional research on devices (they keep me busy around here) but I appriciate you pointing out the differences in the Logix controlers and giving me some more feedback on the opto. Price for the two different Logix controlers we are talking about works out about the same from what I see, by the time you add analog/digital I/O to the controler that is not embedded. Will have to get 220 expansion for either of them anyway. Thanks again, BCS Edited 16 Mar 2014 by Bering C Sparky

[JRoss 84]

Using one controller with remote I/O versus multiple PLCs is one of those debates that have great arguments on both sides. A single controller can often make it easier to synchronize equipment, maintain programs, make changes, etc. But then you're stuck with a single point of failure. If that PLC goes down, suddenly you have a lot of equipment out of commission until you can get the spare online. On the other hand, since you're just monitoring status of the various pieces of equipment, and not actually doing control, then that sounds like a great application for one brain and a bunch of remote I/O. I definitely agree you should go with the CompactLogix. If you have more time than money, then you can certainly make the Micrologix work, but if you want something that's fairly foolproof and easy to maintain, definitely go with CompactLogix. I'd also suggest investigating Point I/O from Allen Bradley. First time I ever used it, I had it up and running in about half an hour (PLC was CompactLogix). You pretty much just set the IP addresses, add it to the RSLogix 5000 I/O configuration, and set the length of the Point I/O "backplane". Then it shows up like I/O in the controller tag list. It's probably more expensive than Opto 22 or Wago (which I haven't used), but you'll have trouble beating the simplicity. A brief glance at the AB website shows that they have 220VAC input slices. I have only used the Micro850 a little bit, so I'm by no means an expert. My guess is that using them would be similar to using the MicroLogix, where you have to use explicit messaging commands to pass data back and forth. It wouldn't be fast, but as long as all the critical functions are handled locally, then speed isn't as much of an issue.

[Bering C Sparky 7]

Jeremy, I appriciate your feedback. The only real control that the PLC has over the machines is frequency setpoint. Should we loose the PLC or Analog output module then the Fequency Drive simply reverts to minimum setpoint. (in this case 50 Hz ) I already have the Baader Tech's up to speed on how the change the Frequency Setpoint Source Parameter on the Drive from AI to the MOP so they can adjust Hz from the Operator panel on the drive if something happens and I am not on the boat. So pretty much nothing with this application will bring the show to a screeching halt. I did look breifly at the AB Point I/O and seen they had 220v input avalible, but this is when I still had it in my head I wanted to try and stay with the Micrologix. As far as Time V/S money, I am stuck on this ship for months at a time with no where to go, if you were to walk further than 340' you would be in Davie Jones's Locker. The money part, well its not my money so once I get this planned out and submit my material requisition the whole thing could still get nixed by a bean counter. Although they have been very receptive to the modifications I have already made. If it will help prevent excessive down time then it is money well spent. What this will cost the vessel makes in revenue in a few hours. I cant really install this while we are at sea during production anyway, so that is why I was looking at putting individual controlers into each machine. Would be able to do one at a time during offloads, which are usually 36 hour turn arounds. But if I go with one controller and remote I/O I will have to do this when the boat is in port and I am supposed to be on my way home. I am easy though if it works out better that way I will stay and install it. Will call RA distributor in the morning and compare prices to see what will be feasible, then see if I can get it past the bean counters. Going to have to slip a micro onto an order somewhere so I can play with the making two controlers talk through the MSG instructions we have been talking about. Thanks for all the help and information, I am sure we will talk again soon. (I have more questions than answers most days) BCS Edited 16 Mar 2014 by Bering C Sparky

[JRoss 84]

I hope the stuff I'm saying is actually helping. You are certainly asking the right questions! I also apologize if my responses seem to jump around a bit. I only get bits and snatches of time on the weekend to work at my computer, so I can't double-check my answers as thoroughly as I like. I'm re-reading your earlier posts to make sure I understand what you're trying to do. Now I see that you don't need the stations to talk to each other necessarily, but just be able to connect them to an HMI for remote monitoring and control. Here then are the main (AB) options as I see them. 1. Micrologix at each station. Pros - you already know how to use them, they're cost-effective, they can talk to the HMI easily. Cons - no 220VAC inputs requires the use of relays (remote I/O is too cumbersome, IMHO) 2. Micro850 at each station. Pros - they're cost effective, free software, there are available 220VAC inputs. Cons - software requires learning curve, may take some work to get to talk to the HMI (see AB knowledgebase article 520218 from November 2013). 3. One Compactlogix with Point I/O at each station - Pros - 220 VAC inputs available, simple to set up and maintain, centralized monitoring and control. Cons - expensive, may require longer install period. None of the choices are perfect.

[Bering C Sparky 7]

Bingo, you hit the nail right on the head. A 220vac in for the 1762 and my we would not be having this conversation. Not that I mind the conversation, learning alot from it. Looks like you need Tech Connect contract to view the Knowlage base. I did register for the free part a while back but dont have a Tech Connect Account. North Coast wil be open in 4 hours and I will see what the $$ will be for CompactLogix and Point I/O if it is to much then will look at other brand remote I/O. Thanks again for your input and help. BCS

[JRoss 84]

Odd, that article is listed as accessible by everyone. I'll include a transcript below. Essentially it says that you can connect a Panelview Plus to a Micro 850 over Ethernet using KEPServer Enterprise only... for now. There's apparently going to be firmware update that will allow the use of Ethernet/IP in the indeterminate future. Since the article's from November, there's a possibility that has happened. Another question for your distributor. Here's the transcript. The other article referred to is also open access, so let me know if you can't get it. 520218 - Can a PanelView Plus communicate with a Micro850 over Ethernet Access Level: Everyone Date Created: 01/03/2013 04:59 PM Last Updated: 11/05/2013 11:13 AM Question Can a PanelView Plus communicate with a Micro850 via Ethernet/IP or Modbus TCP (Ethernet)? Answer Ethernet/IP No, not at this time. RSLinx Enterprise EtherNet/IP compatibility will be added in a future release of Micro850 firmware. Modbus TCP (Ethernet) Yes it can via KEPServer Enterprise Refer to Modbus Applications for PanelView Plus User Manual on how to setup KEPServer for Modbus TCP Requires mapping of variable names to Modbus addresses in Micro850 CCW project file with some limitations 492330 - Micro830/850: Modbus mapping limitation Edited 18 Mar 2014 by JRoss

[JRoss 84]

Also, I understand fitting upgrades into tight time slots. If you go with the CompactLogix, could you simply upgrade the current MicroLogix, using the existing hardwired signals, then add the Point I/O a machine at a time? Would cost more to buy the extra I/O cards, but could be done incrementally. What is your product anyway? What I know about ocean going vessels comes mostly from books and movies. "Titanic" and "Captain Philips" aren't exactly textbooks for ocean going vessels...

[rdrast 3]

Note: You are NOT getting 7 inputs for 3 wires there, You are getting a single active input at a time for 3 wires. That is a big difference, which may or may not be a problem in your application. If I were monitoring 7 overloads, I would want to know immediately if any one or more of them have tripped, not just the first one to have tripped currently.

[Bering C Sparky 7]

Hello again Jeremy, Thanks for your continued feedback. This is exactly what I have in mind to do at this point. Have already started the programing for Logix5000. I am hoping to get Compactlogix controler and enough Point I/O to do a couple of machines and then order point I/O for the other three. Can usually get orders appoved if I do it in stages and they dont see the sticker shock all at once. My RA distributor turned me on to the Integrated Architecture software, pretty cool, makes putting a system together a snap. When we are fishing the Bering Sea our target species is Alaska Pollock. We do this twice a year Jan - April and Jun - Oct. If you have ever eaten at Long John Silvers or had a Fish Fillet at McDonalds you were eating pollock. Or if you have eaten artificial crab, it is surimi made from pollock. We also fish off the coast of Washington and Oregon for a short time each year and target Hake (Pacific Whitting). RDRAST, yes you are 100% correct in what you are saying, I simply ment it was possible to monitor seven motors using only 3 conductors. But of course if two should open at the same time then there is a problem with the logic. This is why I want to redo the entire thing. (That and the fact that we want to do even more now) Project was originally only supposed to be for Speed Control and Running Status. Once I got that done we seen the potintial to give the operator so much more and thats when I started Frankensteining each machine to squeeze more and more out of what was there. I dont like it, and I am not proud of it but it worked, now it is time to make it right. Thank you both for your input. BCS Edited 21 Mar 2014 by Bering C Sparky