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Bob A.

Experience with Point IO

22 posts in this topic

Hi Guys, I'm tapering into the world of Point IO and so the usual jumping around in the various documents and software is going on and I'm finding that so far, it is more complicated that I was expecting. Logix5000 does some things and NetWorx for EtherNetIP does some things but it is not that hard for entries on varoius screens to get stippled out and nothing does anything. Then there is the usual "do it offline" vs "do it online" and since I'm working in a GuardLogix processer, there is the "Download required to clear LSP Fault". There has a been enough plunking around that it is time now to really wring out the documentation with an expectation that it will stick. I have always though that Point IO was going to be a great idea and now I finally have an application for it. I even wrote a justification for a PointLogix Processor and I got a call from a factory guy who was going to be the project manager for it. He said that there were a few priorities in front of it and appearently that is still true. So to the point (so to speak), it would be useful to hear about your experiences with Point IO. Pros and cons, typical problems, maintenance issues, trouble dealing with all the parts, failures or unstabe operation ????? Also, success with software...what works and what doesn't. I had a Point Chassis populated with 15 modules and then discovered that nothing that I did would edit the list and where is "Delete"? Amazing how hard it is to get rid of some things. I wound up making a list on paper and then deleting (Last In, First Out) clear back to the beginning of the list. Then the entry box would not return so I finally got rid of the module and then re-entered the entire stack again (but more carefully). I'm still looking for the way to enter, edit and delete modules in a Point IO chassis as is done in the ControlLogix chassis. Also, it appears that the buss in the Point IO stack might be acting like a DeviceNet system, should I be using NetWrox for DeviceNet for any of this ? So far, I've only used the EtherNet/IP version and have had some success. I thought that it was included in Logix5000 but appearently, I was mistaken so there is another activation to buy. Without it, only three network components can be added. I've got a variety of applications with about a dozen locations for small clusters of IO and some will involve a Safety Task in a GuardLogix processor. Has anyone got any feedback regarding the wisdom if using Point IO in this scenerio ? Thanks for any input! Best Regards, Bob A.

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Have you seen the CompactLogix 5370 L1 series of processors? They sound like what you're describing.

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I'm aware that they are out there but never made the connection. I'm working in ControlLogix (actually GuardLogix Safety) for the first time and I have my hands full with it, and Point IO, and Stratix Switches and SSI Encoders.... I'll definitely take a closer look, we have an IA training day coming up at the end of the month. Thanks for the thought! Bob A.

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Bob - My Point I/O experiecence falls into two discrete examples: Example 1 - Using 1734-ASC as a remote serial port on a CLGX Rev13 Redundant system. The 1734 performed flawlessly, more than I can say for the other vendors BCR units. But I would use it again. Example 2 - The fortune 500 where I work is in process of converting everything to GuardLogix 5000 series PLC. Using EthernetIP for I/O and Safety I/O on it's own Ethernet Subnet physically seperate from the EIP I/O. So far the results have been stellar. Was a little dissapponmted in the Stratix switch OOB. RA as usual promised more features than they delivered. Really wanted the Port Specific DHCP feature, but our hardeware wouldn't do it If you ahve specifics maybe I can shore more. I'm an end user of these systems not the deign eng however, so just remember I may answer I DON"T KNOW :)

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Bob, Thanks for your reply! I'm on the design end this time and using ControlLogix (right now GuardLogix) for the first time after using CompactLogix since 2005. And using Point IO over EtherNet/IP for the first time as well. I have reved everthing to current FW levels and begun to dig into the docs. The Point IO docs frequently refer to NetWorx and DeviceNet and my vender is telling me that Logix5000 can handle the Point IO. I spent an evening last week trying to get a Point IO chassis together and running and never made it completely happy. I tried to edit a Point chassis and it would not let me do it. Eventually I caved in and deleted the modules one at a time and then it would not let me add any back. I deleted the whole chassis and then began from scratch. I know about learning curves as I've been doing this since 1978, but this seems unusually unfriendly. Now I see that there will be a group of encoders to address that use SSI communications. That sounds like a nice idea, but I'm a bit concerned about how easily the Point Chassis is going to be configured especially when all the documentation may be obselete. Best Regards, Bob A.

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We use POINT I/O on most of our ControlLogix/CompactLogix control systems. I'm using the new POINT-expansion CompactLogix on two new systems just because it's so dang cute. I really like POINT in small quantities on DeviceNet, but mostly we use the 1734-AENT adapter now. Did you know it runs Windows CE inside ? About the only thing I run into configuration-wise is the requirement that you manually edit the NVRAM setting for the Chassis size (there's a button on the Configuration tab, or you can log onto the adapter web page) as well as enter it into the RSLogix 5000 configuration. POINT Safety modules might be different. That's a special Module-based connection with a lot more tricky aspects to it than an ordinary Rack Optimized or Module connection over EtherNet/IP. We did two 1768-L43 Compact GuardLogix systems with POINT safety modules last year. We did eight machines last year with DeviceNet adapters and about 50 POINT modules each, and I saw three module failures out of the box: an OB4, an IR4, and an OE2C. That's a higher failure rate than I expected, but our distributor took care of it promptly. We also encountered a firmware problem just as we were getting started assembling the machines; RA had a PSA out about it and again our distributor helped us get new modules for the affected units. I end up using Opto-22 solid state relays to handle high-current outputs since the POINT outputs are relatively puny, and I'm still waiting for a real general-purpose RS-232 module and a Modbus RTU Serial module. The best document is the Selection Guide. It ought to help with understanding the need for various power bus extenders and isolators, as well as the limits for the POINTBus power and addressing, and the various wiring issues that come with having an 8-terminal wiring base.

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Thanks Ken, What about the software issue? Seems that most of the Point Docs are saying that NetWorx is required and my software manager is telling me that Logix5000 is enough. Also, should I be expecting to be able to edit a Point chassis like a ControlLogix chassis or is it really a tedious stepwise process where everything is done in a critical order? Bob A.

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You only need RSNetworx for DeviceNet if you're using the 1734-PDN or 1734-ADN and a DeviceNet scanner like the 1756-DNB or 1769-SDN on your controller. For the CompactLogix 1769-Lx controllers and for the 1734-ACNR and 1734-AENT® adapters, RSLogix 5000 is the only configuration tool you need. I haven't encountered the sort of issues you're describing with adding and deleting POINT modules in RSLogix 5000. When I want to add a POINT module, I increase the Adapter size by 1, then right-click and select "Add Module". In my recollection, POINT is not one of the "auto discover" I/O formats in RSLogix 5000 v20. We dabbled in the SSI encoder modules but there was some detail (which I don't recall) about their functionality that wouldn't work for us, so we ended up using a Turck SSI module directly connected to DeviceNet.

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Bob, To follow up on your ASC comments, I had noticed that there was a Point module for serial. I spent more than a decade talking from a PLC5/40B over a serial modem link and then IP over the network backbone to our general office where the production scheduling system was hosted on a VAX written in Fortran. It took me a couple months in the development lab to begin to get results and a few more weeks scattered out over about 6 months to get the port management in hand so that it didn't get plugged up. In that case, the critical trick was that you had to be 100% effective at not asking the port to do something that it could not do. So I designed the interface to be paced by the PLC so that it always knew what should be happening. After that, I eventually learned to set up a port purge routine for when there was a data storm from some loss of communications or whatever. So I'm curious, have they built the port management and control into the overhead yet, or is it still necessary to manage all that crap externally? Best Regards, Bob A.

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Hi Ken, Regarding the SSI, I'm working in a Class II. Div. I hazardous area (Combustable Metal Dust) that will be unmanned and there are a whole array of encoder requirements. So far, my most successful exchange has been with BEI Encoders. My objective was to find all the required encoder functionality in a common mechanical package with as few types as possible and a common communication methodology to Point IO. Currently, I have evolved the plan to the common mechanical format and next, I'm trying to convert applications that are typically an Incremental app, to be done by a multi-turn Absolute. Since their Absolutes are available with SSI output, then that would achive the common communication objective. At this point, there are still multiple internal configurations required, but a few ideas remain to run to ground. From your experience, it appears that I need to insist on a hands on test with my Point IO SSI module. I'm going to be buying about a dozen of these things so I'm guessing at it would not be out of the question to borrow one for a bit for an evaluation. With Logix Rev 20, I'm just getting started and what I have been having trouble with is that there seems to be a lot of behind the scenes checking of various parts of any given configuration that leads to functionality being stippled out. As you mentioned: "Increase Adapter Size", I tried to do that for an hour and it was stippled out. Far too often this loss of functionality is not explained and my previous experience fails to lead me to a solution (it is amazing how hard it can be to do a delete). This has led to several very painful hours of early experience with trying to get Point IO setup. Now that I know that it is very easy to get into trouble, I'll start out with one module at a time and learn the ropes with something simple. All the conflicting information in the documentation has compounded the frustration. Hopefully, I can locate something in the mountain of Logix docs that will accurately address configuration of Point IO. That will be the task for tomorrow.

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Have used a lot of Point IO wiht the safety modules with great success. It takes some tinkering as do most things from AB. I have deleted entire remote racks to get it like I want it. Be sure and get you one of the goofy Wago bent tools to make the wire go into the terminal block. And ferrule the wire. I have had nothing but bad with the Stratix switches. Run way too hot for my applications, as we knew that going in too. Have used the N-Tron's and Moxa with better results. No encoders used in my applications John

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John, Thanks for the update. I have a nice size pile of Point IO pieces here but have been tied up with the MCC layout. Will be getting back to the IO shortly. Just got an L75 CPU today to add to the L62S / LSP so that is quite a chassis to look at now. For IO, there is an AENTR and about 4 more AENTs so I can make a fairly complex test system to learn the ropes. I'll have a look for the tool that you mentioned. Regarding the ferrules, do you have a particular suggestion? Best Regards, Bob A.

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It would be ferrules I use are usually form Panduit. I've had some issues with the stranded wire vibrating against the sprint tab in the terminal strip. Probably not needed by all, but works in my applications. Best, John ]

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Our guys have had good results from these guys: http://www.ferrulesdirect.com/

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With ferrules, when properly crimped with the right tool they are fine, but if not properly crimped, they are just another termination that can fail. I like them when done right, sure makes replacing devices easy.

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Just like everything else we do in automation, if it's done right it's good. Incorrectly, it's bad! Get the correct ferrule for the wire and it's pretty sweet! Tooling is kinda outrageously priced.

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Nice find. They've got some nice tools.

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I which we had them in the UK. I always use ferrules, even on domestic stuff. For UK people, I use these guys. http://www.chaloncomponents.co.uk/shop/category_Bootlace%2520Ferrules/Bootlace-Ferrules.html?shop_param=cid%3D%26

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Regarding the use of Ferrules, are you guys using them with the screw bases or the spring bases ? Thanks, Bob A

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I use them with both, any precautions?

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I like point IO. I've only used it in a "non-critical" application. I used MDS iNet radios to retrieve run status and flow rate from water and injection wells that were located a little over a mile from a salt dome. Configuration was easy. The modules worked (and are still working) perfectly. I initially had problems with the iNets but that was an installation issue. The radios worked great in the winter when there were no leaves on the trees and as spring came the RSSI dropped and we started getting module faults. Once we raised the antenna's above tree height, problem solved. Ferrules- always. Spring terminals- never (personal preference. I don't use them on wall electrical sockets either)

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Thanks Michael, I appreciate the benefit of your experience. I am a "radioman" and yet I don't like radios for control, unless it is realy non-critical. I know that they are frequently necessary, but I have had nothing but trouble with them over the years. Bob A.

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