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RFurey

Irritation with Rockwell Software products and support at DEFCON 2

14 posts in this topic

This is a bit of a rant. 1. Why can't two products from the same company manage to not interfere with each other? Apparently, I can not have both FT Machine Edition and RSLogix/RSlinx running on my laptop and communicating with their prospective devices, which prevents me from jumping back and forth between the two programs as I try to work on the PLC and PVP at the same time. Recently, I encountered a communication problem with RSLinx that was somehow caused by FT Machine Edition – when I had used it a month prior! 2. Why can't I upgrade the version of my software without introducing a whole host of new problems, apparently caused by the upgrade? I recently upgraded FT Machine Edition to 6.00 and now I can not open the tag database in any of my projects. RS has a completely bush-league work around for this problem, which takes forever. It is so bad that I can not even perform the simple task of deleting a project in the application manager without first rebooting my computer. Woe to the poor soul who has to repeat this process with dozens of projects. 3. Doesn't Rockwell Software have any responsibility to correct software problems on their own dime? I have an annual multi-thousand dollar TechConnect contract because without it the RS products in my plant would become inoperable due to problems or deficiencies that usually originate with Rockwell Software themselves! I have an idea … every time I contact TechConnect with a problem that turns out to be the fault of Rockwell Software, I should be credited with some $$$. I'll bet I could turn a profit with that arrangement. 4. What was RS thinking when they made it impossible to upload an application from a PVP without the original file already on the computer? I understand they have corrected that oversight in recent versions of ME, but that doesn't help when dealing with older PVPs. 5. Why is communications with RS products such an ordeal? I use development software from other companies and connecting to a device is usually no more complicated than pressing a button, nor do they seem to have many problems with other running programs, like virus protection. RS comms seem to choke at any provocation, including other RS programs! ... ok ... rant off. The worse RS culprit seems to be FT Machine Edition and the PVP. I've had nothing but problems with this product since my very first one, 7-8 years ago. I will not buy a new one, but I still have to deal with installed units. When they crap out, they get replaced – with something else.

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I feel your pain. We still have quite a few Panelview+ installed, but I drag my heels when they ask for changes to them and have a migration plan to do away with them entirely. I had to spend two days this week working with FTViewME5.10 which resulted in no less than 20 or so problems including being unable to open the tag database, being unable to create a Runtime file after renaming an application, having my screen graphics "wireframe" and do just plain weird other schtuff. Often, I can perform the exact same steps and the software may succeed or fail differently. Also, I have learned to never ever try to change any of the paths for files within studio (only the archives get copied to a share for backup). I have also learned that any time I have an error, I open up RSLinx Enterprise and click on the shortcuts for local and runtime (even though nothing changes, FTView needs me to do this repeatedly) and hit "Okay". There are a half dozen other habits that I have when using this software just to keep it somewhat usable. No other software program has done more to give me the urge to yank my PC off the desk and smash it on the floor. But luckily, I just do the same procedures a few more times, and then somehow, it works. When I have problems with FTView ME, I try closing the app and re-opening it. This fixes about 30% of the problems. When that doesn't work, I shut down studio and re open it. This fixes another 30% of the problems, and failing that, I reboot my machine which also seems to temporarily solve about 30% of the problems I have. At least 10% of the problems I have cannot be resolved, including trying to open a tag database created before I "upgraded" to 5.10 or created by a machine that is on a different factory talk directory. I simply gave up trying to open them. I don't try to edit and update them either. When push comes to shove, I explain that we should spend a couple grand on a Red Lion and we are money ahead in short order, and my blood pressure drops too. My edits would have taken a half hour in Crimson 3.0, by the way. FTView Studio is utter garbage. There, I said it. I feel a bit better now. Paul

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Ok I'm a bit lost.....I'm not a fan of FT ME or the PV+.....but I have both installed along with my RSLogix5, RSLogix500, RSLogix5000, Panelbuilder32, and RSLinx Classic and don't have any problems on several laptops. Perhaps you have something else installed thats causing the conflict bob

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This is the one I ran into a little while ago. (I'm still waiting for that patch of hair to grow back.) The weird thing is RSLinx Enterprise managed to flummox RSLinx Classic, yet I was able to use the serial port for a month after using FT ME, with a number of non-Rockwell Software programs (Tolomatic, IAI) with no problem. I'm amazed and annoyed that RS continues to shoot themselves in the foot like this. 38175 - RSLinx Classic reports a conflict when trying to configure a serial Driver, One possible cause of this conflict is that a serial-DF1 driver that has been configured in RSLinx Enterprise which is a component of RSView Studio. RSLinx Enterprise runs as a service therefore, it will start automatically when your computer is started and will occupy the serial port before RSLinx Classic starts. In order to configure a DF1 driver in RSLinx classic you will have to remove the driver from the RSLinx Enterprise-->Communication Setup, Local tab only from within RSView Studio.

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The serial port conflict is an oldie but a goodie. It's not just RSLinx Enterprise that does this sort of thing; RSLinx Classic's 1747-PIC driver will grab the serial port and not let go, the NT4.0 DF1 Polling Master will do so, so will the DeviceNet Server for the 1770-KFD. And plenty of other software like KepServer or a virtual loopback will grab the port and mess with it. I solved that problem with PV+ serial terminals for $40: I bought a Keyspan USA-19HS USB/RS232 converter and set it up as COM5, and I never configure RSLinx Enterprise to use my onboard COM1 serial port, only that COM5 port. When the USB/RS232 converter is unplugged, RSLinx Enterprise quietly sobs into its handkerchief and doesn't bother Classic or anything else I'm trying to do with COM1.

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PanelView + terminals are completely forbidden here now due to their supreme crappiness. I wish I had the same option with FTView SE, but I'm stuck with that pile of dung. RSLinx Classic and Enterprise can co-exist, but they do take a bit of work to make them behave. In general, it's easier to run one or the other. Never Never Never install the first (or second) release of a new version of any Rockwell software. Wait until they have a complete, patched up install option. I still have nightmares of installing Logix5000 V18.00.0, and having to spend days repairing my computer. That was finally what convinced me to go 100% VM for all of their low quality software.

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I got a great laugh out of this statement. Seriously though that is a good suggestion.

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Not to pile on the PV+, but .... I've been getting a low battery message on a couple of my PV+ 600's. I asked my distributor for the battery part number so I could replace them. Apparently (and I still can't believe this), you can't just pop out the dead battery and pop in a new one ... you have to send the PV+ back to Rockwell because the battery is soldered to the circuit board! (and they do not recommend anyone replacing the battery in the field) Is this true??? If so, is there any conceivable justification for designing the PV+ like that?

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Actually, there is: vibration and shock. Most PC-like architectures use a CR2032 coin cell and even the most robust holders won't meet the shock and vibration specs that the PanelView has to meet. If it were me, I'd use the same holder as the MicroLogix 1500 does (you need pliers to get that one out) but I wasn't making the call on that. This doesn't solve your problem, but they didn't solder the coin cell to the board to increase repair revenue. The 400 and 600 models are nearly disposable: they don't have modular logic and display bezels. I've had PV+600's on the shelf and in demos since they were launched and have never seen a low battery indicator. Do you run particularly hot or cold in these applications ? A lot of power cycles, maybe ?

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The low battery message comes up when the PV+ reboots. I believe the battery of the PV+ 700 -1500 can be removed and replaced in the field. I also recall reading that the battery is supposed to last two years or so. My PV+ panels do not see any temperature extremes (maybe 60 - 100 degF) and only occasionally experience a power cycle. The low battery isn't really a problem. It's more of a nuisance that eventually required me to globally connect the PV+ clocks to the PLC clock so they wouldn’t keep losing their times and messing up the operators.

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in general, software products are below user's expectations. after all many things don't get picked up until product is released but also many things could be better. i'd really like to chat with guys that do develop these products and hear about things from their angle. are they aware of user requests and complaints? do they have time to work on those issues? do they care? how exactly do they test it? i was just writing some code for CLX using ST and found it very frustrating that even line numbers are not shown. what the heck is user supposed to do? i hope they don't expect me to enter them by hand like: (* 151 *) (* 152 *) if test then (* 153 *) variable := whatever; (* 154 *) end_if; (* 155 *) one has option to show line numbers when PRINTING, but i could not find such thing in the editor. ok, so there is this little box in the lower right corner saying: Ln 152, Col 35 so far so good, but unfortunately this thing is not shown permanently. it is gone when messages are displayed (someone forgot to create output window so they dump everything into same label in status bar, often overwriting other info). for example one time you certainly WANT to see line and column numbers is when recovering from fault. but if the CPU is faulted, this info is gone. in order to see where the problem is, first you need to clear error or ... good luck counting lines by hand (i'd really love to hear their thoughts on this one). the same goes for monitoring. the tag list is .... not the greatest invention, but it is ok. now why why why opening tag monitor windows has to hide all open programs? or opening program, hides tags? there are tabs under the window, don't hide them, just keep tabs to all open windows. how complicated is that? next issue is that things (tags) one need to see are often not adjecent. few tags may be on top of the tag list, others can be at the bottom. there could be hundreds of tags in between, so one has to scroll all the time - because one can only open one tag list once. how about letting me open it 4 times and just TAB from one to another? how about letting me close unwanted windows instead of doing it for me? AB does not have VATs but closest thing is QuickWatch. at least one can specify few tags to be monitored and forget the rest. well, not quite, this does not even let you choose display format. it does not help that something declared as DINT shows up as decimal or whatever if i cannot change viewfrom decimal. remeber how i asked how they test it? something makes me think that the developers run desktops with plenty of resources (CPU, RAM, large probably dual high res monitors) so they simply don't get to see things from user's angle. maybe they don't realize how much screen estate is really available on average laptop or how many other products average user needs to have installed at the same time. need to make one little user prompt or similar? but why bother, someone has done it already, so just dump the entire DotNET, internet explorer, gobbles of tiny files and what not. user will take it. they allways do because they don't get to choose. and if it works on developers machine, all the user needs to do is replicate that machine and envorment. so add that monster display, turn it 90deg and show the tag list. i know that programers didn't try to systematically sabotage their own product but it is impressive how much they do miss and that is on a product that is verison 19 or so (I am aware of version jump from 2.5 to 6, but still). as mentioned earlier, we can pick any software product from any company and tear it down. the question is what does it take to get the companies to listen and improve those products? as far as my experience goes, the bigger they are (companies) the less they care... (the less impact user has on product support/development)

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I'm with you on the Logix 5k stuff. I grew up on Logix 500 which seems much more useful for troubleshooting. It has in-line x-ref if you want it (each XIC/XIO instruction has a hyperlink under it to the coil, the coil has a list of hyperlinks to everywhere it's used as an input). The Custom Data Monitor (CDM) is very similar to the Siemens VAT. You can enter whichever addresses you want to monitor/modify and change their display formats individually. Logix 5 is very similar to Logix 500, but Logix 5000 is a completely different animal. I understand that the L5k processors are significantly different from previous families, but it still seems like the software could have been made more similar and more useful. BTW, I feel the same comparing PanelBuilder 32 to RSView Studio.

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I really like the AB products, however I'd rather have another option when it comes to software. I also feel the Factory Talk View is useless junk, and I feel it's just a matter of time before a class-action lawsuit is brought against Rockwell. The support is a bad joke IMHO also, from the outrageous price to maintain it to the actual telephone support. I'd say 90% of my calls were solved, but there have been some that werent. My second to last call to tech support ended like this: Tech Support Person: I'm sorry, I dont know what else to tell you................. I guess he or she ran out of KB articles to read back to me. The last call ended with: well somethings changed. That's it????? Our local Rockwell distributor suggested getting someone (system integrator) from another plant in our area to come help us, he'd be glad to set it up, but we'd have to pay the guy for helping. That is when I suggested to my boss that we not renew the support contract, and as such we have let it drop. We are currently looking to other alternatives for any new projects we have. It seems that Rockwell would show some interest in their customers, and their needs, and not just in lining their own pockets with money. My rant's over now..... Mike

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I just installed Factory Talk View Studio on my laptop so I could backup and alter PanelView Plus's last week. Yesterday I attempted to connect to a DeviceNet network through a SLC 5/04 and it times out. My local AB distributor support guy contacted AB and they say they know of no issues. Looks like there are plenty. One problem I've always had with AB and others too. If I was in the Hardware business, my software would be free! Also I would not charge you for support, especially if it was my screw up that caused the problem anyway. Just my 2 cents worth!

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