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nas1

New to PLCs, an education question

11 posts in this topic

Hello. I am an experienced hardware engineer (EE) that is currently looking for work. I have plenty of experience in the development of PC boards and computer hardware but have never had any contact with control and PLCs, though I think it would be interesting. I have seen several engineering jobs locally that I would be qualified for were it not for the required PLC knowledge. I am considering PLC training of some type but am first wanting to make sure it will be worth it. My main question is: in general is it likely a hiring manager would accept such training in consideration for a job or is direct industry experience very critical and likely to be required for such jobs? As of yet I have found little in the PLC area at local colleges and universities but I have found some intensive 3 or 4 day hands on courses out there by other companies that I have been considering. I would also plan on a lot of self study afterwards which I feel I am fairly good at. Thanks for reading, any feedback on my situation, I would appreciate it.

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If you have already done some programming then one of those crash courses and some time to fool around with a small system (AB will sell a "decked out" model for $2K, or their low end "micro" PLC for under $500 including programming software), you can pick it up very quickly. My experience prior to working with PLC's mirrors yours. The big problem I see is that although you'd be clearly qualified for an embedded controls guy, you don't sound like you have a lot of experience in maintenance activities, which is another hole in your knowledge base.

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I would suggest you have the following "hard sell" issues to address. 1. Lack of PLC experience 2. Lack of Process / "Big Picture" experience. Be prepared for this question "Have you every left your drafting board or design and test bench to see your equipment in the real world?" Ron Beaufort probably has the best PLC teaching course I've heard of.

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In today's world there aren't many positions for plc "programmers", maybe in the big outfits you can specialize, but generally speaking most places want automation/controls people, with plc programming being just part of the package. IMHO the controls industry breaks down into two major categories, machine control and process control. With machine control you will have lots of discrete devices, maybe some analog, encoders, and perhaps motion controllers. This means you will need to know about sensors, switches, buses, motor controls etc... With machine control you will also need to know about E-stops, machine safety systems. With process control, it's mostly analog, with some discrete also, but usually you will not need to know motion controls. You will need to know about pressure, temperature and flow instruments, PID control, VFD's (needed for machine control also) motor controls. You may have to know about SIS (Saftey Instrumented Systems aka Shut down systems) for process safety, E-stops, etc.... I guess what I'm trying to say is learning to program PLC's is just the beginning. With your back ground you should get this pretty quick, most of the other things will take hands on experience, although a lot can be gained from manuals, forums, mfg. websites etc... I know you have to start somewhere, but I don't want you to get your hopes up, and find out that you fall short of employers expectations. Most employers today, are trying to do more and more with less and less. It's gotten to the point where you have to wear many hats. One day you are a programmer, the next an instrument tech., the next a draftsman, and last but not least you have to be a salesman too.

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Yesterday a head hunter on the phone said that internally they call these jobs "swiss army knife engineers". I'd agree 100% with what Ken said with three exceptions: 1. There is a third category, batch. It's kind of funny because it takes on characteristics of the other two. It is very similar to process except includes a lot more discrete I/O. It also frequently involves a lot of documentation (store a history of how it was made) since most FDA regulated systems are batch. 2. The only reason that you see more "specialization" in the process industry vs. discrete manufacturing is because understanding the processes tends to be much more specialized...the realm of chemical engineers, metallurgists, etc. 3. Size of plant/company has a lot to do with the degree of specialization. In a 1000 man plant, I was a "process engineer" (didn't use the EE except on occasion). In a 200 man plant, I was a plant engineer. In a 25 man plant, I was maintenance manager (all of it). In a 12 man plant that I interviewed for, it was plant manager. I got into this area because it was more interesting (to me), higher pay, available upward mobility, etc. One thing I can definitely say though is that rotating industries tends to flat line your career progression. Best to stick with one particular area and do it to the best of your ability, regardless of the ups and downs of the economy unless it's clear that you are at a dead end. I've made just two lateral moves (in the larger sense such as process->discrete) and both cost me dearly.

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Yeah, forgot about batch. I work in a batching plant, and there are alot of integrators out there that don't understand it. I've been doing it for about 12 years now, and I'm still learning new things. Documentation has increased a lot for us since the mid-1990's when OSHA PSM regulations were. implemented.

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Greetings to all ... first let me say “thank you” to BobLfoot for the nice referral ... now then ... our new member nas1 (the OP) gave me a call yesterday and we had a nice talk about some of the issues that he mentioned in his post ... with the economy these days I’m now getting very similar calls about two or three times a week ... basic idea: the caller is “looking for work” - but every job description seems to have a “PLC skills required” string attached ... natural question: will taking one of my “PLC Boot Camp” classes help? ... short answer: maybe it will - but maybe it won’t ... as much as I dearly love to hear my cash register ring, I try very hard to NOT sign up an “individual” student like this until he/she has an understanding of what’s involved here ... hopefully the following material will be helpful to people who find themselves in the situation that I’ve described ... as we’ve discussed MANY times on the forum, understanding PLCs is just one part of a complete job ... electrical, mechanical, pneumatics, hydraulics, and MANY other types of skills are required in almost every industrial setting ... so ... for the sake of discussion, let’s just say that my caller feels comfortable with those “other” skills - and that the PLC piece of the puzzle is the major hurdle to landing a job ... in that case, I recommend that they pick up the phone and give me a call ... I’ll be delighted to help them on their way ... but ... again for the sake of discussion, let’s just say that the caller possesses few (if any) of those “other” skills ... in that case, the PLC piece of the puzzle probably won’t be enough to tip the employment scales in their favor ... in that case, I personally don’t feel comfortable in accepting the payment for one of my classes ... even though I KNOW that the class is worth what I charge, I hate the thought of accepting payment for something that my experience tells me probably won’t satisfy the customer’s needs ... “needs” meaning EMPLOYMENT in this case ... moving forward ... here’s what I generally recommend to the callers that I’m describing ... suppose that you had an opportunity to discuss a job with a potential employer ... suppose that you took a printout of one of my course descriptions with you - and slid it across the desk ... suppose that you asked: “If I had these specific PLC job skills, would you be interested in hiring me?” ... suppose that the answer is: “Yes, these are exactly the skills that we’re looking for.” ... well in that case, just pick up the phone and give me a call ... (handy printable copies: for PLC-5, for ControlLogix, for SLC-500) ... naturally I can’t guarantee that you’ll get the job - but I WILL guarantee that you’ll feel satisfied with what I can teach you about PLCs ... if you’re not, then I don’t want you pay for the class ... flashback to reality ... I know how difficult (probably impossible) it would be to set up a meeting and discuss this type of stuff with a potential employer ... that’s not the point ... the point is that for someone who’s “looking for work” an investment in PLC training is likely to make a sizeable hole in the family finances - especially with travel and lodging added in ... let’s do all that we can to make sure that such an investment has a fair chance of paying off ... so ... if you can’t get your foot in the door to talk to a potential employer, here are some other suggestions ... ask the forum members to give you advice ... list (in detail) what you know - and what you think that you NEED to know ... talk to friends, neighbors, family members, anyone who knows anything about the specific requirements for any job that comes across your radar ... if it turns out that having some Allen-Bradley PLC skills on your resume might help, then I’d be honored to provide the training ... word of caution ... my Boot Camp classes aren’t intended for students who expect to sit back and just listen to an instructor teach ... this is work, work, work - on one project after another ... there are NO scheduled breaks other than lunch (as short as possible, please) - and many students eat a sandwich with one hand while still working away with the other ... it’s not a “grind” - and most students fully enjoy this type of “intense” mental challenge ... (more) ... now I’ve said all of that - in order to say this ... we’re all familiar with the old adage of “use it or lose it” ... these classes are meant primarily for students who already have jobs - and their employers are investing in their training ... the general idea is that the student will leave my class on Friday and go back to the plant on Monday - a LOT better prepared to work on PLC-controlled systems than before the class ... and the point I’m trying to make ... now suppose that a “looking for work” student goes through the very same class - and fully masters all of the material ... but then reality sets in - and a job interview doesn’t materialize for weeks or even months ... see the potential problem? ... I’ll add this general “looking for work” idea that someone shared with me many years ago ... IF (big IF) you have a lead on a potential job but the company is reluctant to hire you outright, see if they’ll consider letting you work for a while through a temporary employment agency ... note that you won’t get any “benefits” and the paycheck won’t be too impressive ... the advantage (from the company’s viewpoint) is that they get to try you out with no strings attached ... from your viewpoint, you get a chance to impress them with how much you’d be worth to them as a permanent employee ... I’ve heard of at least two cases over the years where this approach worked out quite well ... let’s face it folks, times are looking very bleak out there ... we all need to keep our wits about us to make the best possible use of whatever resources we have available ... along those lines, be careful of what you’re buying - and do everything possible to spend your time, money, and efforts wisely ... PS ... obviously this post could certainly be considered “advertising” - so if anyone wants to move it to the “Services Offered” area of the forum I assure you that I won’t be offended ... the reason that I’m posting it here is because (1) my classes were specifically mentioned in this thread (which I sincerely appreciate) and (2) I feel that the people who have need of this information are more likely to find it here than in another area ... Edited by Ron Beaufort

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Thanks for the comments, I appreciate it. From one of your recommendations I looked up Ron Beaufort who provides the good PLC training. I called just to ask a question or two about the 5 day class he offers and I ended up on the phone with him for a good while as he had read my post here on the forum and ended up giving me some of his thoughts. For the possible help of future readers in my position I'll try to summarize his points. Ron, please jump in if I haven't quite covered something right. In his opinion he would rather not see me spend the money and time going through his 5 day class unless I had a strong lead where I was fairly sure it would be used. He would not want to go through it all, then end up taking a job like my past ones that wouldn't use any of it. In addition he has 3 flavors of the class tailored to the 3 main types of PLC out there (old, established P1540) and 2 others, one especially that might be seen in new designs). In my situation, which one to choose would be a gamble as I do not have a particular job or company in mind. He also suggested something I had already planned on doing in addition to posting here and that is to try finding someone in the industry that would be willing to talk to me about the issue. See if their required experience for such jobs could include just training or if real past experience would be required. Last main thing I have here is buying your own PLC hardware for self-study. As someone already posted, the hardware can be reasonable but he said the full software to run it is rather expensive. He did mention you can get a very low end PLC out there that sounded like a small single board solution with software included that is a good starting point for learning the ladder programming but this setup is fairly primitive compared to a unit used in industry and would not prepare you well for many signal types.

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I disagree. There are a couple "starter" options that even Allen Bradley offers. First, RS-Logix 500 Starter version and RS-Linx Lite version are both free. You can program a Micrologix 1000 with just this set of software, and the list price for that PLC is $157. In all respects other than the severely limited PLC model limitation and the I/O limits, this is the same as the "real thing". Second, stepping up to a lot more money (and more intended for a business budget) is the CompactLogix "Starter" kit which includes the software, a PV+, a CompactLogix processor, cabling, power supply, etc., for about $2K. More recently they just put "RS-Logix Micro" on their web site. I have no information about this but your local Allen Bradley rep can probably give you more information. In addition, there are some off-brand PLC's that are very inexpensive that could definitely be used for learning. I wouldn't recommend using the "pico PLC's" from AB for a learning experience though...just too darned limited. I'm not a fan of them for production purposes but the stuff that Automation Direct sells aren't too terribly bad. There is a review of one of them (a DL???) on the Mr. PLC site. The software is either free or very inexpensive. I've had bad experiences with some other "off brand stuff" myself but at least the DLxxx series sounds fairly solid.

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One thing you will need to consider, if you are going into the PLC world is that you may have to be versed in serveral manufacturers. Each manufacturer offers their own software and methods in programming. It would be advantageous to grasp the theory first before going into specific manufacturers. In some instances you may be able to choose what you use. In other cases, they will dictate what is to be used. To get you started, you can download our software through the following link. www.entertron.com/software.htm Follow the instructions in that the software is password protected. This will get you started. Keep in mind that other manufacturers will offer software that will do things somewhat differently, however the theory should be the same. And you can't beat the price. There are programming examples, manual and a simulator included in the download. Hope this helps. God Bless, Edited by entertron

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Greetings paulengr ... in response to your statement: in the phone conversation I had with nas1, I understood his objectives to be “going-all-the-way-as-rapidly-as-possible” with his PLC education ... as he correctly said (quoted above), I certainly did bring up the Micro 10-point unit as a “getting started” system - but as the conversation continued, nas1 decided that he would need more horsepower to satisfy his particular objectives ... so ... as far as beginner-level ladder logic programming, I completely agree with what you said about the Micro-1000 10-point unit being the “real thing” - but unfortunately it doesn’t support things such as floating point or analog signals - which were high on the list of topics that nas1 wanted to cover ... going just a little bit further - for the beginners who will probably come this way in the future ... not ALL MicroLogix-1000 systems can be programmed with the FREE version of RSLogix500 software offered by Allen-Bradley ... it has to be a 10-point unit - and the revision number must be at least “F” ... before you buy a used system, you might want to read this thread ... summing up: for someone who’s trying to “get started” with Allen-Bradley programming as simply and inexpensively as possible, I certainly DO recommend the MicroLogix-1000 10-point unit - coupled with the free version RSLogix500 software ... here is a source for those who are interested ... disclaimer: I occasionally help the supplier develop lessons for these units - but derive no income from any sales ... party on ... Edited by Ron Beaufort

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