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tony8404

Have a dilema with choice of school courses

14 posts in this topic

Hello everyone, i had posted a while back on how to learn plc's on your own. I am already attending a trade school for electronic system technician program which you earn a diploma. The thing that is confusing me is this, I have a smudge on my background and i still am not sure yet if i can or cannot have the smudge removed. Even though this had happen back in 1996 i still am sure it has not gone away yet. With that said, I feel i will not be able to require my perk card which is required to get a job with burlar/fire alarm tech or installer. So i have till august this year until i graduate. instead of finishing this program that i am in now they have another program called E.C.M electrical construction maintenance. this program is a little smaller then the one i am in now and is also 4,000 dollars cheaper. Seeing as how i wanted to get into plc's i feel maybe this is the option i should take instead of throwing 14,000 to the e.s.t program that i am currently in and not sure my background will land me a job, taking into consideration that the school said there is other fields for the est program to get a job in. i feel that i do not want to have the responsibility of the company van or worry about accidents not to mention having a set schedule. so with all that said and done and you can now see what i am talking about. i was wondering if any of you fine gentlman can give me some insight on what electrical construction maintenance can do for me. i do know a little about the jobs i can get from it but i do not want to be a full fledged electrician i feel it is too long to go through i just want to finish school and get a decent career whether it be working in a factory on motors or on plc's.. would i be heading in the right direction by switching to ecm or should i stay with est program?????? i am not looking for someone to make my decision but i am looking for thought, experienced people, and advice. thanks

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I may not have given enough info for you guys to help me out here.... I am trying to see which of the two programs is more worth the while. the ecm program has a plc class in it along with single and 3-phase motors, also redisdential wiring ect.ect. the est is mostly tech stuff like optics, telecommunications, home theater, burglar/fire alarms, satelite dishes. I talked with my father and he was saying the ecm is more like factory work like i would fix motors maybe plc stuff as well. he was saying that the est is probably a little more respected then the ecm. to me if i switch to the ecm program i would have single and 3 phas motors along with plc and other stuff, which would let me work with plc's like i would like to do but do not have the time or chance to go for a associates or bachelors. i know there is no such thing as a plc guy it is a mix of stuff but which would be more successful in the long run ecm or est.. by the way here is a link to my schools web page which you can see the courses for each program. thanks guys i hope i did not bable to much :O) http://www.coyneamerican.edu/programs/elec...-technician.php est program here http://www.coyneamerican.edu/programs/elec...maintenance.php ecm program here

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I.M.H.O. If you are wanting to play with PLCs I would say choose the ECM program. It looks a lot like the programs here in Oregon for the manufacturing plant electrician license. I think it would put you in a better position to learn more than just PLCs. You would be gaining the tools and knowledge to effectively troubleshoot a lot of the things PLCs are connected to and control, witch in turn will make you a better programmer. Also it would give you a good background to be able to advance your education with PLCs if you choose in the future. The other resembles a satellite or cable installer with a lot of huff added that might not fit into the bulk of the job market. I could be way off because I have closer ties to the ECM. It might be tough to get a job in a factory, waste water plant, or working for an integrator, where you will probably have the most exposure to PLCs, with just the EST stuff. It might help you make your decision by talking to some of the prospective employers in your area to see what would make you more valuable on the job scene. good luck

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Robh, thank you for the response. like you were saying there is alot of huff with the est program, not to mention when i am in class now the class is 4.5 hours 3 days a week. but the thing is its a blow off... Monday we just started our home theater class and we watched the matrix and gladiator !!! Last night there is a new person in our class, well, for alittle over 2 hours was a discusion on politics!!! the last hour last night we finally got into the different cables, which i already know by learning myself. This really makes me mad cause i can be learning on my own instead.... but if i was in the ecm program i would be learning everynight. I will call around different employers and see what kind of description the job is what is required. I do not know why but i feel the need to get into plc's... would i make more money doing the ecm or the est ? also, i was thinking once i am done with school i was gonna go to something along the lines of allen bradleys courses as well. which out of the two programs would i have the better success with???

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I can't speak for everywhere or everyone, but I can tell you in our searches for a new electrical technician, I have seen a glut of phone/satellite/cable/printer technicians in the marketplace and precious few with any industrial experience (PLC/3 phase motors/control devices), which is what we were wanting to hire. Take from that what you will.

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Ianbuckley, thank you for the response, that is another thing i was wanting to hear from people in the forum even though you may not be in chicago it still helps me get an idea which path to choose. I was speaking with someone last night, he had told me that if it were him he would stay with the est program due to the easier work load then working at a factory on motors. I had said i would really like to work on plc's but there is not just a job for plc's its a mix i guess but not sure of what and i am thinking the ecm program is the way to go if i want to work on plc's due to the different courses included in that program. But for those of you that are in the electrical construction maintenance industry are the job conditions that bad? i mean labor wise. Another thing i was told was that a technician would get more higher respect then a ecm guy would ... i had asked why is this... he had said jokingly when he was at work with other engineers they would make fun of the electrician calling them 60 cycle electricians due to them only working with ac.. i had said that to me when i see those guys in there class room it looks challenging to what i am doing in class like watching movies and the teacher showing funny stuff on youtube..... see where i am coming from????

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As a degreed electrical engineer with more than 20 years experience in the controls/manufacturing industry, I would suggest the ECM program. A typical position for someone with that background would be maintenance at a manufacturing facility. You would be troubleshooting problems with the equipment, working on retrofits to old equipment, and having PLC experience would be a big plus to any employer since most new equipment comes with a PLC. The downside can be that you may be required to work 2nd or 3rd shift, although this means a higher salary and there is usually a lot of overtime involved.

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Devo, i am so glad you responded. I was hoping people that are in the field or with your amount of experience would pop in. I am leaning to the ecm program more now then the est. Last night i was in class and i swear to god, i feel i could have accomplished more at home then i did there. We watched the entire footb game last night and the teacher ordered rib tips 3 buckets worth. so instead of just sitting there i almost read the entire book for the class. but yet i want to get something for my 14,000 instead of something i can actually learn on my own. i think this is why i may just switch to the ecm program because i can take my manuals for my home theatre equipment and learn on my own lol. The only thing i wonder is if the ecm program would be good enough to get me in a job? I was told by the school the whole time i am there is considered experience and i will be there for just about 1.5 years when i graduate so i hope i can use that as experience.

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Most larger companies will do some sort of testing, either written, hands-on or both to evaluate your skills. Just try to get as much hands on experience as you can. Reading it in a book is not the same as putting into practice.

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Sorry i have not checked the thread since last friday, I had to fix my 50 year old boiler that i cannot afford to replace but thank god i am handy lol. Anyways Devo with your experience you may or may not know much about the est side of job enviroment but i was thinking it seems either way i go there will be overtime lol and harsh enviroments. to me it seems more money in the ecm but yet the est would be more of a different day everyday. god these decisions

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"Harsh environments" is a bit of a joke. Yeah, you get some hazard pay. But the reality is that if you don't mind getting dirty, then "harsh" doesn't mean much. The crappier the environment, the more the company does for worker comfort and protection from my point of view. This is in keeping with working in some really excellent examples of "harsh" places like on the water (dredging operation) in winter, and in a lime plant (alkaline dust everywhere and very hot conditions). Regardless, the companies pay a premium because they need workers who are willing to tolerate more than an office-type job and who are willing and able to educate themselves about risks on the job and take responsibility for wearing PPE, etc. But regardless, maintenance ANYWHERE is always a different thing every day. Telecomm technicians are doing installs and troubleshooting around houses, etc. Once you've seen a half dozen houses or so, it's the same old install. In a plant you are working around the same equipment and people all the time but the number of different ways that the equipment can and will fail and what it takes to fix it is always changing. If a plant job starts to get repetitive, it's because you're just fire fighting. In today's environment, that means that the plant risks being closed. If the plant isn't getting better all the time, something's wrong.

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Well, tonight i had finally gotten in touch with someone at the school about switching my classes and i did. I also was doing some looking around at different schools such as ITT Tech and Devry. I was seeing about there Engineer B.S. degree they have at ITT Tech and does not look bad but when i did some searching on the net it was a different story every time i click a different link provided by the search and they were not good stories... I am not sure if it is a good idea anymore. I was excited at first due to seeing they have the same schedule i am on now, which is 4.5 hours, 3 days a week. Also, found out that travel time same amount of time but will have to get a beater car for myself but oh well if this is a good thing i can by a better one later lol. But alot of the stuff i read was not good but yet it was not where i would be attending a campus at. So right now i am about to look around with a more indepth search with the campuses around my area. By chance anyone been to ITT Tech or looked into it or just knows if it is worth it or not? I would love to get that B.S. in there Engineering degree. Not to mention there is math classes along with it too but they kept out the General Ed classes. I wonder if this is why they say you can finish in two years? Even if there not a good choice. what about Devry? i do not believe they have night classes for there engineering B.S. program. Not to mention Devry may have you take General Ed classes like comp or psychology.

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Well, i am not sure anymore... I look at Devry, I look at ITT Tech, I look at the school I am attending...I have even looked at the community college i once attended back in 96 (i was going for mis but at that time it did not make sense ) .... I look at the annoyance I have caused in this forum due to not knowing what i am talking about, not to mention jumping at anything that looks good but yet would just create a destruction unimaginable... All i know now is that i have at least changed my current program to the ECM program, from now till feb 2nd i am going to read my buttocks off from a book i bought called basic electricity, not to mention even going over the books i got from this school which can speak probably more then for half the teachers at the freaking place. Then when I start back up again maybe i can have that upper hand and fly through it. After that i do not know what to do, even though i know for sure schooling maybe be out of the question......... You can not trust them as you would have before within the last 30 years...... There is no way in heck i could ever attend a 4 year university.... Alll i know is that i wish if anyone has children that reads this, and is still pretty young that they can make a difference with there life before its too late in the case of me to for the love of god, please let your children know how important it is to go to school........... I wish my father would have done that.... But how can i blame him if all he was trying to do was make things better.... All i know is i have never been so disappointed in this country .... These so called trade schools should really be condemmed and should be illegal, all they are is money hungry. I would like to see obama do something about this because i believe it is happening more then people think.... Just go ahead and type ITT Tech is it worth it In google search All i have to say choose the red or blue pill please!!!!

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Cheer up man. It's not that bad. It is darned easy if you make it fresh out of school and your parents pay for everything. It's a beautiful thing if your parents had the money to afford that. It doesn't always happen that way. I had to work to pay my last few years of school plus rent, etc. My wife got hit with thousands in student loans. And we were definitely "traditional" students. What my degrees have done for me is two things. They delayed my entering the work force by 8 years. And they opened some additional doors. Those same doors may or may not have been opened to me much earlier if I worked hard and managed my career to show the experience. I don't really know what would have happened at this point. I know that two of my peers in the past had no engineering degrees but they were treated as engineers (with a lot more experience than me) at a Fortune 100 chemical company. I'm not suggesting that this is the best way to go...just that having an engineering degree is not the only way and that it's up to you as an individual to find your own path. As to getting a degree without your parents paying for it, here's an example. A friend of mine named Ron G. worked in construction most of his life. At about age 45 he decided he wanted a BSEE and went to school. He did it cold turkey at a 4 year university. He had to take a lot of remedial-type classes since even if he had algebra in high school, it was a bit rusty to say the least. He struggled with the studying too since he hadn't done that in 25 years. He was married with kids too at the time which makes it extremely difficult. He managed to swing a great deal on the house and income which worked in his favor and kept him afloat while he went to school (job didn't require a standard day shift). Once he got the degree, he got a really good job with GE and last time I spoke with him, he's making 6 digits working for GE's nuclear division. I have the utmost of respect for Ron for the persistence and dedication it took to take that kind of risk and pull it off. He is still one of the smartest guys I know and I've met a lot of smart people over time. Sometimes you can get a company you work for to help pay for it. Sometimes you can get a scholarship (although obviously these days, those pretty much dried up for the moment). Sometimes strangely enough it is easier to get the financial support at private universities than public ones. It is not impossible. I also know guys that switched to second or third shift jobs specifically so that they could moonlight as college students and also pulled off getting a degree. It may take 8-10 years (this is a very common time frame for nontraditional students, and engineering degrees in general can take that long anyways) but it can be done. What I suggest you do is to talk to the admissions offices and/or "advisors" within the department you want to look at (electrical?). You'd be amazed at what they might know happens to exist out there. Some times you land something you didn't expect too...when I said I paid my way through, I happened to land a job in a different department just by being at the right place and time. I had the right skills for the job and worked for the next 4 years while I finished what I was doing at the same time (they were flexible about the hours). Even if you don't find a company that is willing to pay for a degree, I have many friends who landed "co-op" type jobs (traditional student or not) with companies that were perfectly willing to pay for someone to go to school even after the first year. In fact my current employer regularly pays for co-ops. It's less expensive than paying for a "real" engineer as long as we pick tasks that are well defined and can be accomplished in a relatively short (3 month) time period. You will be a far better student regardless. For one, you are motivated. For two, you understand the value of what you are learning in a way that someone fresh out of high school will never appreciate. Nontraditionals make some of the best students too because when the professor says something that is obvious B.S., they let the guy have it and we all learn something. As to slamming DeVry and ITT...these guys serve a purpose. They are trade/technical schools. You really need to be degreed these days even to work as an automotive mechanic. The days of shade tree mechanicing on cars seem to be rapidly disappearing, especially now when a car might be a hybrid. Where I work, we have an apprentice program. We keep one or two guys in school (a trade school) at night while they work a full time job for 3 years. The candidates are all from nonskilled jobs. The company pays for the school (as long as they keep their grades up). At the end of the apprenticeship, they automatically get reclassified as skilled positions and get the pay increase (pay roughly doubles). Several of them in the past have gone on to pass the electrician test and made money as independent contractors either full time or part time. Outside of the apprenticeship program, we only hire someone with obvious experience as an industrial electrician. A degree (ECM is an example) answers a lot of questions. Otherwise, we have to do a pretty extensive interview to determine whether or not the candidate knows what they are doing. It is very hard to find qualified individuals. We pretty much have standing orders for hiring machinists and industrial mechanics and electricians. From what I know from other plants, the story is the same all over...so if you have the paper, you shouldn't have any trouble finding a job. The problem comes in if you try to pretend that ITT or DeVry or any of the others are anything but a technical school. Trust me they turn out excellent technicians or at least ones that can be trained to be excellent technicians. They do not receive the same kind of training as an engineer though. They are not ABET acredited programs. It isn't going to get you a degreed engineer job by itself. It will get you one level down from that and with persistence and effort, you can gain enough experience to get the engineering job. Yes, there are companies who insist on that piece of paper. But then there are those that refuse to hire without a master's or PhD, even with a qualified candidate in front of them. That's life. Everyone has their prejudices. By the way as far as I know, there is no such thing as a "controls engineer", "plant engineer", "process engineer", or"electrical & instrumentation (E&I) engineering" as a 4 year degree. Those have been my titles in the past. I haven't actually worked as an "electrical engineer" or "metallurgist" yet, even though that's what my paperwork says. You don't go to school for those. You show that you have the relevant experience to do those jobs. Whether that comes in the form of a 4 year ABET degree or some other direction depends on the individual. If you still want the 4 year degree, I'll leave you with one huge hint. Companies look at where you graduated and the degree. They don't care how you got there. If you go to a local community college or "senior college" and get all the general requirements, or even some of the upper level classes done there (at about 1/4 of the cost of the 4 year university), you can save a substantial amount of money. If you can push it all the way to only taking the last semester or year at the 4 year school, so much the better! The only warning I have if you take this approach is to be absolutely sure of which credits will transfer and which will not. Often universities will have various "community college" affiliates and actually have "pre-university" type programs available. If you don't pay attention to "transfer issues", you could be stuck with a pile of credits that don't go towards anything and end up repeating what you already did. I haven't heard of such affiliations done with ITT or DeVry. I'm pretty sure that a major reason for it has to do with ABET accreditation. One of the things to look for with bachelor's degrees in engineering is ABET. That's the litmus test. I have several credits on my transcript however which were from 2 and 4 year "tech" programs. I wasn't allowed to transfer any of them because they weren't ABET approved.

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