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Nibroc

Ethernet IP

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I am currently configuring a CJ1W-EIP21 unit to communicate with some third party E/IP devices. Are third party eds files FULLY compatible with the Omron configurator? To effect communications with Beckhoff remote IO units, I found I needed to edit the EDS file to change the data size of the input and output instances - I would have expected to simply set this within the configurator. I suspect if I added some 'param'eters to the eds file I could make the input / output sizes adjustable for each instance? (shouldn't this be done already ?) I have not yet established proper communications between the EIP21 and an Altivar 71 VSD - The EDS file seems 'corrupt' or not compatable with the Omron configurator - the various communications instances supported by the VSD have all the wrong input / output sizes in the configurator. After editing the EDS file to suit, I have established some communications - the VSD / EIP21 report a valid 'connection', and data is being transferred from the VSD to the PLC, however not Vice - Versa. Perhaps also a 'generic' eds file could be supplied with the omron configurator (or could someone supply me one?) - where you simply enter the instance numbers for input, output, and their respective sizes, RPI etc. Any comments appreciated ... Nibroc

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Whilst I haven't done what your trying to do, I did have similar problems when trying to configure a ATV on devicenet. It was not 'plug & play" as to be expected. What schneider here told me, was that they have had to modify the eds files to suit the s/w versions of the dnet module. It seems that they were releasing different versions of the module, but not the eds files to suit. Not the same as what your trying to do, but on the same subject. So your using the beckoff IO as well, how do you find it?

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Hi Scott, Yes I have used both Wago and Beckhoff IO recently - it works great. (has all the different network options too!) This project uses 7 Beckhoff ethernet IP couplers with digital, analog and temperature inputs on each. I have the Beckhoff IO working on the EIP21 now. (had to adapt the EDS file to suit each of the 7 units IO sizes and install 7 EDS files with different unit descriptions) However, the ATV71 is not working yet. (yes I have also had 'issues' making the altivar work with devicenet but succeeded eventually) I have concluded now the the EDS file for the ATV71 will also need to be modified to work. For example, by modifying the EDS I can make the ATV71 / EIP21 communicate with no errors, however if I disconnect the ethernet cable the ATV71 does not detect a comms fault ! Also whilst I am receiving data from the ATV Scanner, I am not able to send data! The EDS file for the ATV71 was created with EZ-EDS from ODVA, however some of the instances (eg the 100-101 instance) simply do not work as they have completly the wrong input / output sizes! The trick is, using ODVA products are supposed to be relatively easy - in my experience with devicenet and now ethernet IP, mixing brands with ODVA is not easy. (and becoming an expert at EDS / CIP should not be necessary!) I also wonder (actually strongly suspect) that some configurators 'ignore' certain EDS parameters and simply write their own values in appropriate place (parameters such as RPI, input size, output size). I suspect that this may be a reason why EDS files work with some vendors, and not others?? Any coments welcome. Nibroc

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I have been pretty lucky with Device Net so far and have not had any problems with AB stuff on Omron gear - have also not had problems with Pepperl + Fuchs absolute encoders. I have heard that some manufacturers are not updating/supplying correct EDS files. This will probably affect CompoNet as well as it also uses EDS files. Schneider and ABB in particular are the two I have heard about.

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Update: I have had the Schneider Tech guy in my office for a couple of hours with no luck. He is now up to speed with my problem. - The EDS file was definately incorrect, and my modifications were justified. He is going to request advice from 'above'. However, I have now spent many hours on this problem and am unable to establish 'proper' communication between the Altivar and EIP21. Although we are able to establish a valid connection (both EIP21 master and Altivar are happy) and have tried all the various 'asseblies' offered we are unable to control the Altivar. (Note that I have used the Altivar before with Devicenet to Omron, and also with Modbus TCP - which will be my fallback position if not resolved soon!) We would like to implement the assembly 100-101, which simply reads / writes 16 bytes in each direction. Although we are happily receiving 16 bytes from the drive (all working OK), we are not able to send any data to the drive. Does anyone have any in depth knowledge of the Omron configurator software , and/or the EIP21 ?? Nibroc

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We make a certified Ethernet/ip compatible product. There wasn't a requirement to make a EDS file to be Ethernet/IP compatible. Our product is used with Control Logix PLCs all the time and no EDS file is required.

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Absolutely compatible with valid EDS files. EDS files are required for virtually all Device Net and Ethernet I/P products. They are installed into the configurator so that the correct read/write words/sizes are known to the software. I have used AB I/O on Device Net quite often and also the AB Powermonitor 3000 successfully with no problems with the EDS files. The Powermonitor 3000 requires the use of explicit messaging due to the huge amount of data that is available for extraction. I also had absolutely no problems with a Pepperl + Fuchs EDS file for absolute rotary encoders. I changed the scaling of the values to be read from the device and the only problem I had was figuring out how to write to the encoder to store the new value. When I figured it out the whole thing worked fine. The Omron configurator does need EDS files for Omron components but they are already built in to the configurator. New devices from Omron still require that an EDS file be installed if it is not already in the configurator. Omron have an update service for their software and if updates are downloaded regularly any new devices are automatically installed into the configurator. AB, and all other Device Net/Ethernet I/P configurators still require EDS files. I do not know why your product does not unless AB have an EDS file already built in for the device or it works only with explicit messaging. Then an addressing system is used to extract/write data from/to the correct location.

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Hi Peter, Yes, the Omron Configurator does require EDS files. It appears that they are used by the configurator provide a relevant 'GUI" for each device, allowing selection of various parameters such assembly instance and i/o sizes. Yes, I note also that the Manual for the Altivar VSD gives an example of integrating the VSD into a control-logix system by setting it up as a 'generic ethernet module', then just type in the assembly number, and sizes and away you go ... However, we do not have a 'generic ethernet module' supplied with the Omron Configurator, and I suspect that your product utilises the 'generic ethernet module' / EDS as suggested above. Nibroc Edited by Nibroc

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Update: We now have CJ1W-EIP21 to ALTIVAR 71 VSD communications Schneider sent us a new EDS file all the way from France, and away it went !! I won't go into details, but as we computer people know, it only takes one little setting to make a big change !! If anyone needs the correct EDS in the short-term, PM me and I will email it (also for ALTIVAR 61). Medium term, Schneider will provide an updated EDS. P.S. - Finally we have datalinks using ethernet (EIP21 - EIP21) and to other brands as well ... Nibroc Edited by Nibroc

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Yes, that is the way we do it. The customer specifieds how many registers he needs for inputs and outputs. This is usually proportional to the number of axes used. Simple and it will avoid a lot of problems if Omron implements the same thing. So what am I supposed to do when a Omron customer calls up for tech support and says he can't make his Omron talk to our products? It isn't out fault. We are certified. This is why I pay to have our products certified. I WILL blame the other guy who isn't certified. I will tell him to call Omron but that will not help the customer fix his problem. What then? Is Omron going to piss me off by telling the customer it is my fault because don't have a EDS file? I have been warned and I will remember this thread. You will hear me rant and rave about this when I get the first tech support call about Omrons requiring EDS files. Like I said, this is why we go through all the trouble to get certified. These things shouldn't happen. Omron is new to this. I expect Omron to add a generic module option ASAP

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Download EZ-EDS from ODVA, make an EDS to suit your device. There is even an EDS Authenticator tool. Without this, unfortunately you will not be able to integrate your products with the Omron scanner. Nibroc

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Thanks for responding Tim. I have only just got back to my computer. I must admit that after reading the CIP spec some time back I found it rather strange that Peter did not have EDS files as it is part of the CIP system regardless. I have always had EDS files supplied for any AB devices I have ever used. Profibus requires files for integration also.

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If Omron is certified then there is something wrong with the certification process. I will check tomorrow. There is no way a master should be certified if it can't talk to the certified slaves.

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I have deleted my original response to the above and now decline to comment any further. I do not wish to argue as to whether EDS files are or are not necessary. This was not the purpose of starting this thread. Nibroc Edited by Nibroc

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ODVA are responsible for all CIP networks. These include Device Net, Ethernet IP, CompoNet and ControlNet. Omron are not new to CIP networks. They are member number 47 for Device Net, Ethernet IP and CompoNet. Allen Bradley is member number 1 for Device Net and Ethernet IP. By the way the member list is now over 1100 numbers. The principle members of ODVA listed on the home page are Cisco, Eaton, Omron, Rockwell and the most recent principle member Schneider. There are new specifications available to enhance the ODVA CIP networks - I do not know what they have done as I do not have access to that information. One has to order the specifications these days. Obviously the CIP networks are continually being udated and enhanced in various ways. Moving target? I checked for EDS files at ODVA and found the March 2008 ZIP archive of EDS files is now 86.8 megs. Awful lot of EDS files in that lot. I did not bother to download the file and search through it though - I do not have time. I do agree that Omron should supply a generic EDS file though so that I/O values can be edited into the file to communicate with other devices. As you have been working with Allen Bradley stuff Peter, I wonder if Allen Bradley supply an EDS file for you in their configurator? I do not know. Do the Control Logix processors address your equipment with explicit messaging? I do know that I have to install EDS files in the Omron configurator for Allen Bradley devices and an EDS file in the Allen Bradley configurator for Omron devices though. Not trying to start an argument here just trying to understand why your equipment does not need an EDS file for AB when Omron require EDS files for other brands and whenever I have used the Allen Bradley configurator I have required EDS files for Omron and Pepperl and Fuchs devices. Does not really matter if the network is Device Net, Ethernet IP or CompoNet - they are all CIP networks and one of the claims from ODVA is that they all work in the same way to make life easier for all us poor old end users. Makes you wonder some times.

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It is possible that they can all work the same way but it is obvious that this isn't part of the specification because our product doesn't requre an EDS file. My objection to this thread is that is has been told only from a Omron point of view where everything must conform to Omron's view of the world. .

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We are in the Omron forum. I was trying to commission an Omron system, as such, I must comply with Omron requirements Nibroc

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Well, that means that your product is not using Ethernet I/P to communicate with Omron at all. It's using FINS commands, that's something different!! The Ethernet I/P Protocol is common to all suppliers, and does not rely on vendor-specific protocols like FINS Edited by Fredrix

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And by the way, the company listed in your profile: Delta Computer Systems, provide EDS files for their Ethernet I/P slaves.............. Maybe you should stop throwing dirt on Omron, and see what your own company actually uses?

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Our product supports both FINS and Ethernet/IP. Currently our Omron customers use FINS and the Rockwell customers use Ethernet/IP. I haven't heard of any Ethernet/IP enable Omrons in the US yet.

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I am sorry guys, I was wrong. I was looking the Rockwell colored glasses. Ethernet/IP slave modules are required to have a EDS file. As it turns out we have a EDS file but no one has ever looked at it. I didn't even know we had an EDS file because no one has asked ours in the 8 years we have been shipping Ethernet/IP products. Our EDS passes for bare minimum but I wonder if it would be good enough for Omron's Ethernet/IP. I bet this is the same problem tha Altivar guys ran into. They probably had a EDS file just to pass certification but until now it has never been actually used in a PLC that actually used the EDS file. Rockwell doesn't require EDS files from third party devices. There was peace in Ethernet/IP land. Now there are other Ethernet/IP masters there will be compatibilty problems as the EDS files are finally being truely tested. Now I wonder if our EDS file will work with Omron's Ethernet/IP.

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Perhaps this is something to look into, I'm sure your local Omron Distributor would be keen to get involved.

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Actually, we are ahead of you. We bought a Omron Ethernet/IP module just for compatibilty testing so we don't get caught like the Schneider guys did. These Ethernet/IP modules are new here so it is good to get one before and do the tests before our customers do.

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Three years later. Finally we have a EDS file that works with Omron's Ethernet/IP. ODVA has enhanced the specification during this time. It is now possible to incorporate the EDS file in the firmware of the slave device. The master must be updated so it will read the EDS file from the slave. Our Omron Ethernet/IP module doesn't do this so we must include a text EDS file. One of our products is going to a Ethernet/IP plug fest where different vendors get together and test for Ethernet/IP compatibility. You would think this would be done to get certified but it isn't. Also, we have bought a $2400 Ethernet sniffer that time stamps Ethernet packets among other things. We can verify how much jitter our RPI time is. We have found the our jitter is about 50 microseconds which is pretty good considering we don't have any special FPGA for this like Profinet or CipSync requires. So if the master is decent we can synchronize modules within a millisecond easily. That is good enough more most applications. The Ethernet/IP spec is rather lose and allows about 50% of the RPI for jitter.

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