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mikey431

AB historical trending data solution

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I need to know what is the best to good solution out there for historical trending data for ControlLogix or SLC PLC ?

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Capturing historical data from a PLC is a big task that should have the problem statement developed before you jump in. Criteria I look at in a similar situation... 1. Will the data be discrete or analog (real, float, etc.)? 2. Will the data be event-driven (machine faulted) or time-driven (stream data while machine is running)? 3. How much data must I save? If the number of tags is very large, then a data warehouse (SQL server) is probably in order. 4. What is the purpose for the data (food and drug verification, production reports, management says I have to)? 5. Are shift or daily reports needed? 6. Are there HMI's on the process/machine? If you need to collect data and you have a PanelView, you can replace that with an industrial PC running a SCADA package with data historian. 7. How many tags do you wish to pull data from? 8. How long should the data be archived and should the data be archived in multiple databases to insure triple-check collection? SCADA package offerings: Allen-Bradley RSViewSCADA; GE (Intellution) Cimplicity/Proficy; WonderWare InTouch; CiTect If you solely want to pull data from your A-B PLCs, a data historian package is the ticket. All of the SCADA offerings are complimented by historian packages. I prefer WonderWare's InSQL Server myself, and their canned-reporting-package add-on. Very easy to setup and easy to configure data collection warehouse and report generation system. Beware, though, of cost as SQL server licenses are very pricey. Most industrial SQL server packages are capable of tracking data from huge numbers of tags, so if you want to pull data from a few tags, a SQL server is way overkill. Another big consideration is the hardware that the data historian will run on. How will the historian communicate with the PLCs - through the company LAN, private control network, direct connection? Does the historian need to be in a climate controlled environment out on the production floor? Who will be the mom or the dad for this new database (i.e., get IT buy-in when designing the hardware solution). An item that can be overlooked in setting up a data historian is all of the software costs. With many pacakges pulling data from Allen-Bradley PLCs, you may need to purchase a license of RSLinxOEM to get the OPC connectivity option. If you have only a few 100 tags or so of data to archive and you are good enough to write database query script to generate your own reports, WebDockDataPort is a decent, no-frills package. Great for setting up a babysitter data collection solution on a leftover office computer. Too often, corporate-level decisions are made for data historian platform selection. So if you have the option to put forth your first solution idea, start building the specifics of the project (such as answering some of the questions I have laid out) (i.e., build the scope of work). The scope of work will be extremely helpful in getting quotations either for software/hardware or an integrator for providing a turnkey solution. Everybody wants data, but seldom are customers setup for maintaining the infrastructure that is needed to keep the data collection systems running. There are tons of resources for finding out possible solutions, such as the historian packages I have suggested.
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I have gone to work for a company that has never had any sort of data historian, so they have not yet figured out the benefits. Since they have never had it, they are not interested in spending the money (yet) on the better options, so I had to do a budget historian, to sell the good one. I had an spare 6" Automation Direct touch screen which has some trending screens, and I archive data every 10 seconds. This data is recorded to a removable USB drive. I can access this data thru the FTP server that can be created with the screen. From that, I can import into MS EXCEL, or MS ACCESS. Then of course you know you can do anything with it form there. Redlion also has the same capabilities. They also have a data station that does the same thing without the screen. With Redlion the data is stored on a user supplied compact flash card. If this is your situation, you can try what I have done to get the blessing for the better system.

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You can get an iHistorian (GE Fanuc) for free with no license restrictions. This is a full blown historian. The only limit is that you can only do something like 10-100 data points. It's enough to get the ball rolling in many cases. InductiveAutomation's FactorySQL is <$5000 (much less than most data historians) for a full blown, unlimited license. You can run it in "demo" mode for 2 hour stints. Not sure if they'll give you a loaner license for a bit longer or not. Most SQL server licenses are very expensive. If your historian will work with it and you are starting out fresh, mySQL is one of the best out there, costs $0.00 per license, has very good support and development, and runs on virtually any platform. Similarly, although there are some user limits and other "gotchas" built in, Microsoft gives away their SQL Server, and they've taken away most of the worst license limitations with the latest version (SQL Server Express). If you decide that you want a for-pay SQL Server or you have a compatibility problem, if you buy "GE Fanuc SQL Server" through GE, it is Microsoft's SQL Server with no strings attached except that it's a couple hundred bucks cheaper. Be forewarned that outside of these options, a SQL server will set you back $4000 minimum plus that price may double if you run it on a multicore/multi-CPU server, and it goes up if you have lots of simultaneous users connecting. The most expensive ones in the business come from Oracle and IBM.

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Have you ever heard of I/Gear (www.igearonline.com)? This is a connectivity tool, and in your case would allow you to read an unlimited number of tags and then control how that data is written to the database of your choice. For a ControlLogix PLC, I/Gear has a native driver for read/write access, but you would additionally need RSLinx or Kepware for a SLC, since it needs an OPC server for most other processors. As far as your data store, I would recommend SQL Server 2005 Express. It is free and supports up to a 4 Gb database size. If you don't need all the features of SQL Server and you don't have a lot of data, Access will work, too. The downside is that there are no preformed reports or anything, but it does give you a lot more flexibility. I/Gear has really good tech support for this. And, yes, I work for I/Gear. Mike Atwell

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thank for all info... one of my vendor recommend Prosoft modules , anybody has experience with this?

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While it's a nice idea to have a hardware device do your data logging, it often works better to do so in software. Much depends on your exact requirements - engineering a "solution" isn't about a "one product fits all" approach. For Historians/Data loggers in general, a hardware implementation should be more robust, and software more flexible and capable. Since your historian will run on an SQL database, you necessarily have PC(s) in the mix for this type of application - and that platform can easily run a data logger as well. The one distinct advantage of a hardware approach is that it can cache a limited amount of historical data if the PC or network connection drops. Weigh that against the fact that they're: more expensive, less capable, less upgradeable, and not centrally managable and you have a compelling argument to see what software is out there. PS - I'm assuming an expandable and robust, database-based approach. If logging to text files meets your (usually legal or regulatory) needs, then a hardware device alone could satisfy your requirements. However, I have a million and one reasons why it's a bad idea to use Excel or text files as a Historian.

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That doesn't make any sense at all. Unless there's a lot more explanation behind it, I'd find another vendor immediately. Prosoft Technologies sells modules that act as protocol gateways. For instance, if you have Modbus devices and you want to connect to them from a SLC or ControlLogix, then you plug a Prosoft Modbus scanner into your PLC to do the interface conversion. You aren't looking to convert anything. Simply to peel the data out of the PLC and log it somewhere. On the hardware front, you will obviously need a server to sit in a corner and quietly collect (and serve up) data. You will need some sort of hardware interface to tie it to the PLC. On the software side, due to the fact that Rockwell alone has no less than 4 different "flavors" of Ethernet, plus dozens of other network designs (just look at the list that pops out of RS-Linx when you select "Add Driver..."). So all the drivers have been standardized to support OPC (Object Linking for Process Control). It's similar to having a "Windows driver" for printers, except that this is a Windows driver for PLC's. You can get drivers from Kepware, Matrikon, and Rockwell. You will have to pay for it regardless. Unlicensed RS-Linx ("RS-Linx lite") will NOT support OPC. Rockwell purposely disables it. Unless there's a compelling reason to choose something else, I recommend going with Kepware's OPC drivers. The reason is because they are the most scalable (can scale to thousands of data points). RS-Linx and Matrikon can't handle that much load. Rockwell even uses Kepware internally in their Panelview Plus products. You will also need some sort of software to collect the data. Several choices have already been mentioned. You will also need a database to hold the data in. I recommend going with a SQL compatible system. Two free choices are Microsoft SQL Server Express, and MySQL. Of the two, MySQL has higher performance, is easier to interface, and gets bugs fixed faster. Microsoft SQL enjoys a slightly larger support base among software vendors. Finally, you will need some way to get the data back out. Microsoft Office can let you get the data into Excel directly. Most of the SCADA/HMI packages previously mentioned will not only log to SQL but will also display trend charts from it. You can use Jasper Reports as well as Crystal Reports, as well as several other report writing packages to write reports. And hands down jfreechart can't be beat for charting. GE Fanuc's Proficy Portal also sort of fits in here although it is interactive. I think Rockwell sells some fairly expensive options as well. If you are intending on doing this on a larger scale, then consider the other "MES" applications out there. Rockwell's own RS Plant Metrics, GE Fanuc's Plant Applications, and OSI PI are examples of the "big boys". What you get with these are pregenerated plant "models". You plug in data indicating what your data represents. Once you've done it, these systems automatically generate downtime reports, productivity reports, quality reports, "OEE" and other performance metrics automatically. They can also help with production planning among other things. If your plant fits their model closely, it can shave development time down to weeks to months for an MES system. Otherwise, you are better off with the above "generic" systems and rolling your own because you will tear your hair out trying to make the model fit.

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They have ( Prosoft) alot more then that( see links) http://www.prosoft-technology.com/content/view/full/7098 http://www.prosoft-technology.com/content/view/full/10951 http://www.prosoft-technology.com/content/view/full/1062 http://www.prosoft-technology.com/content/view/full/10023

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Paul - I know several vendors make data loggers that fit in Control Logix modules. I haven't heard of any that work with SLCs or PLC 5s. It's a really cool idea. However, based on my conversations with several integrators, they tend to be expensive and inflexible. (I'm not sure what vendors they dealt with, so I can't say "yea or nea" to Prosoft). It is an embedded device, so I can image what the vendor would have to do to program it. That said, I'm sure these will get cooler and cooler over time. I'd love to see one that's totally configurable via a web page that plays nicely with SQL databases and SCADA systems. Just make sure that it does a good job with data caching - that's your one distinct advantage of going that route. Also ensure that it can log to an SQL database. The units that write their data to a .CSV file then upload them as separate daily .CSV files will complicate your life in the long run. Edited by Nathan

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Maybe these? http://www.oldi.com/aw/catm_overview.htm http://www.oldi.com/aw/xcoupler_home.htm http://www.oldi.com/aw/catm_overview.htm

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That's right - I was referring to X-Coupler. That's the only SQL Database logger that I know of that works with AB and runs entirely in a module. I'm pretty sure it's just for Control Logix. I think those other modules are gateways (devices that translate between protocols). That's not to say that a SLC module data logger doesn't exist...

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Where will this data be stored? Usually this is stored in an SQL database. If that is the case, I recommend using an OPC server such as RSLinx OEM, KepServerEX or similar, and then a transaction manager like FactorySQL or RSSql. You grab any tags you like and store them on any event you wish to configure. I find this setup to be the most flexible. I also usually use SQL Server Express from Microsoft, but I would prefer to use MySQL. Customers are afraid of it being free. The modules you can buy that plug directly into the backplane are great, but from what I've seen they are very expensive and not as configurable as a software solution.

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I've used FactoryDataView and would highly recommend it. It has a data historian package and a reporting module.  Adding tags to a project can be as simple as drag and drop. It browses Rockwell PLCs just like Rockwell's stuff. It uses its own driver to communicate with the PLC.  www.factorydataview.com
 --
Dean

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