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A new pet peeve of mine

43 posts in this topic

I hope I did not sound like I was coming down on Entertron. I was using his statement about targeting OEM's to explain an issue I have. I have worked on both sides of the fence, as an OEM and as an end user. The point I was trying to make is that it bothers me when an OEM "black boxes" something just so they can get service calls from it. It bothers me when I have to jump thru hoops to get imformation on a product I already have. I just do not see why it has to be such a hassle. Also, just for the record I have worked on several machines that the OEM could not fix even when they were the ones who built it. Even more entertaining is following an OEM that has gone out of buiness or has been bought out and will not support the machine.

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I find this thread to be rather interesting...even if I never intended and didn't want to be the focus of it. Jesper, How much documentation do you need for PLC hardware? You need to know the capabilities of the I/O...type, ratings...and how to wire to it. What else is there that is truly required? I/O Capabilities types and ratings are found on the product pages. I would think you would need to know this information prior to purchasing the product, in the design phase, in that your entire BOM is dependent on the I/O of the PLC. Wiring information is included in the wiring diagram...in process of being improved as we write. Serial communications is in the manual in that it is more software related than hardware related. There are wiring diagrams for the transformer, (if provided) and the controller itself. Any additional documentation is either provided through the manual, or through additional cut sheets that relate specifically to options. Pricing is based on two aspects...I/O and quantity. As stated in my previous post, we are able to configure countless configurations therefore you are not restricted by the modular approach of traditional PLCs. By determining both, we can provide pricing, not just for a single unit, but also for quantity purchases. So, How do you obtain pricing...All you have to do is ask. There is more on our approach throughout this response. Clay, Even though our primary focus is directed towards the OEM, we sell to end users, single time users etc. The greatest advantage...is that our hardware cost in combination with software cost is extremely competitive for a one time purchase. When your selling a $500.00 PLC one time...every customer requires software. When your product includes the software, it is an immediate savings for that single purchase. And as most of you know, software costs can vary greatly. Basic economics dictates that volume purchases improves economy of scale. It costs less to sell to a repeat customer than to sell the same quantity to as many individually customers. (example - selling 100 units to 1 customer is less expensive than selling 1 unit to 100 customers) Both, from a manufacturing and service after the sale perspective. We anticipate any new customer will require some amount of time of customer support. How much time varies, depending on that individual and their level of experience. Regardless, even if someone is familiar with PLC programming, every manufacturer is different, so there is always some degree of a learning curve. With regards to our pricing approach...the business world has become so impersonal. People don't want to deal with other people. Look at the corporate infrastructure...people hide behind voice mail. Very rarely does a live person actually answer your incoming call. Trying to find someone to talk with in customer support has become a greater challenge today. Our product isn't the type of product that you list all the options and their pricing. We have tried that and for us, it doesn't work. I would much rather invest the time talking with an interested individual, getting to know them, their application and how we can assist them. Businesses are built one customer at a time. Customers are kept by the relationship you develop with them. I have only been doing this for 15 years, but I can tell by the inquiry, whether it is by email or telephone, whether that lead will develop into a customer, based on what they say, and even further, how they say it. Our goal is not to be like these other companies...we tried that before, and it was a huge mistake. Our goal is to differentiate from the norm. We offer unique products, that are competitively priced, and American made, in an industry where the majority are offshore produced. Our warranties are longer. Our service is directed towards the customer, ensuring easy access during our regular business hours. Our primary focus goes well beyond the business aspect. If you have visited our web site then you will understand what I am talking about. I know for a fact that we will not be the best fit for everyone because we do things differently and will not compromise our beliefs for the sake of attracting new business. We develop new customers, one at a time, through personal contact and by addressing their needs. We learned along time ago, that if you sell primarily by price, you will lose customers by price. When you develop a relationship with them, it becomes more than just business. We have had customers tempted to go with other products, because another salesman introduced them to another manufacturer. Because of those relationships, we are able to retain a good percentage of our customers...not by what others dictate to them, but by their desire to stay with us. We go out of our way to protect our customers intellectual property that they spent a great deal of time and money to develop. There are those that don't want what we offer...which is fine, because there are plenty of manufacturers that will sell to them, not caring about anything else. Peter, Thank you for your comments. I would be interested to know more about that OEM drive you have considered. I can talk with you more about how we have been handling third party products, with some encouraging success. To all, Thank you for pointing out some of the areas that we need to improve upon, specifically our wiring diagram information. With regards to pricing, I have considered including a starting price on each product page, but have not made a decision one way or another. My view is that by stating a starting price tends to be very misleading in that it is the lowest price that is published. Many tend to use this price as an absolute price and therefore expect all your products to be that price. A starting price does not take into account the requirements of an application. I would relate it to purchasing a starter kit. Why purchase an entry level PLC that won't address your application requirements? The first controller should at minimum meet the needs of your application. On the first purchase, we tend to oversell the I/O because during the development, I/O requirements tend to increase. God Bless,

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shop.rockwellautomation.com You do have to create a "user profile", but in about 5 minutes I was able to get pricing and availability at my local distributor. There's all sorts of software you can download from the AB site. There is even a trial version of their top-of-the-line offering, RSLogix 5000. It is a 90-day trial, which is probably sufficient time to learn how to use it and decide if you want to buy it. Although I haven't yet tried it, I don't imagine the Entertron software would be of much use beyond 90 days if the user hadn't bought a PLC to program with it :) Edited by gravitar

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Ok call me dense but I still don't get it. Let's take an example. You've got a long list of components under the heading "Ordering Information" on this page: http://www.entertron.com/smart-pak.htm So why can't you add a third column and put a price next to the part number and description? If you discount based on sales volume, you must have some "list price" that you start with before discounting?! And please don't take any of this as an assault against your company.. You just happen to be the only manufacturer's representative that has bothered to comment in this thread!

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Gravitar, Nah...I won't call you dense...lol. In answer to your question, we do have a general price list. And have considered what you have suggested, but have decided against it...for many of the reasons posted previously, not to mention others that I have not stated, and choose not to elaborate on. The ordering information (primarily analog information) is merely a guideline. I have had people request information on configurations that are not possible and are stated as such. For instance the Smart-PAK PLUS analog expansion board has to be ordered with one of two main boards. I have had people try to include them with 16/12 configurations. It is a two board set...maximum. Therefore, it is of benefit to the customer for us to talk with them directly, going over everything about the product. With Rockwell's online store, you still have to register, in order to obtain their pricing...which was the initial basis for this thread to begin with. (although product information rather than pricing) Contacting a distributor for pricing requires the same level of effort in obtaining pricing from us. From what I understand, distributors will discount from the list price and sell below the list price from let's say Rockwell's web site. Needless to say, you can purchase from their store, but chances are you will receive better pricing from their distributor in your area. We don't put a time limit on our software. It is what it is. When you purchase a controller, it is included. You download it from the web site and request a password, it is unlocked. There is no additional action required by the customer. Then there is the scenario whereby the customer has specified the part numbers for their application, thus thinking that what they have specified is the best option available. Upon further discussion with them, we may determine a better solution that would save them time and money. Demo software, time specific software all imply that an additional action / purchase is required. With the purchased software, you have site licenses, service contracts, etc...that you have to keep track of. Should you want to utilize the software on more than one computer, you will require additional site licenses. Not only do we offer the software, but we allow for the installation on as many computers as the customer desires. This same approach has saved some schools thousands of dollars in software costs, not to mention yearly maintenance fees. Registration information can be faked as well. We have received many emails with bogus information, fax numbers as contact numbers...home numbers, etc. My point...there are hundreds, even thousands of scenarios possible. Our approach is to address each application individually, providing the best solution we have available. 99 times out of 100, direct contact is required, in order to do so. In the long run, it saves our customers time. They know what they need...we know what we can provide. In some cases, they don't know what they need and we will assist them in sourcing additional components. When they order, their pricing is established, no additional effort is required on the customer's part. New applications / requirements get directly addressed as needed. Again, our primary focus (not exclusive focus) is directed towards OEMs. Just because the information is available online and therefore accessible, doesn't always gurantee a quick answer. Every application is different and therefore requires individual attention.

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Wrong, No registration required. Been using this for years. http://shop.rockwellautomation.com/RA/prod...gcefkdffldfhi.0 Edited by Mickey

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Mickey, Thank you for your response. Based on gravitar's response, I created a profile at the rockwell store without checking to see if you could obtain pricing first. Upon reading your response, I went back to check and see if you could obtain pricing without registration. From the shop home page, I typed in a valid AB part number. It took me to a second screen whereby it asked for general shipping information. Once I completed that, it took me to a screen that listed the availability of my item (without pricing). When you click to add to your cart, it took you to another screen that required registration. Based on my experience with the web site, it appears that you have to register to obtain pricing. I cannot speak to what you have experienced. Your link is the same screen that I started at. Even under the "Quick Order" entry area...it says above that you are to sign in before ordering. I would have to believe that if you were to sign in, you would have to register first.

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Now Peter brings up a valid point for software registration, though as I said before I have no problem registering for items such as software What if you find a flaw in your firmware that could cause undesirable or unpredictable operation? This would be your only source of contact information to warn potential users.

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T, Are you asking this in general to the fourm, or specifically to me?

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Stephen. The conditions that you present as arguments for not having list prices on your web site, are no different from other suppliers products. They are also modular, and a customer has to be careful to select parts that go with each other. The correct answer to this problem is to put instructions on the website that guides the customer to select the right parts. You can put this in a FAQ, or in a manual, or both. Again, customers like such helpful things. Answering all questions with "please contact us personally" turns some people off. About the possibility to obtain prices from AB without registration: I think that AB has tightened its customer procedures a bit recently. I remember that I have downloaded a complete price list for their PLC, HMI and software stuff in the past. But today you probably have to register to get the same information. It is the same about their knowledge base, in the past everyone could access it directly, now you have to be registered. And what happened to the Rockwell forum ? In short I think that AB/Rockwell have become more user-unfriendly. So it is not a good example to follow. I find this development odd, as their main competitor (guess who ?) is working hard to become more userfriendly. From them you can access manuals, prices, support FAQ, software updates, and get support, all without registration or a support contract.

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No question, just an observation

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i didn't try digging deeper but site posted by Mickey seam to work for US only. changing country removes "Proce and Availability" button.

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Jesper, Our goal isn't to be like everyone else...as stated previously. The products are vastly different. Ours is not a difference between plug in modules, but rather a factory configured product. We would much prefer to get it right before the controller even ships. Much of what we do today is based on experience. Various things we have tried in the past, didn't work, therefore, we needed to make changes. Your premise is done by many, however, there is one variable that must be taken into account in order for it to work...and that is for people to read the manual or documentation. We have become a hurried society, where we want everything from a drive thru lane. I greatly value direct interaction with a customer. It minimizes the possibility of miscommunication, misapplication of product and thus the potential for a deteriorating relationship. Not getting answers turns more people off. We typically don't have to make that statement, because those that are truly interested will either email or telephone us directly. Should they email us, we will either respond by return email or by telephone. I believe you are referring to AD...aside from price, we offer all of that as well, all without a support contract or registration. In order to receive software updates, you would have had to purchase the software first.

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FYI Sorry, You need to move mouse over select Product then click on Configure Product. Also you don't have to know the cat. no. ConfigureProduct.bmp

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Nah, I was thinking about Siemens. AD (=koyo) is small potatoes. They are practically non-existent over here. Edited by JesperMP

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And just so that this thread can come full-circle, Hirschmann, the company I was originally griping about (entertron stepped into the line of fire by choice :) never did contact me after making me go through their registration song-and-dance. Which is a shame, because I could have used some assistance in selecting cabling to go with their switch. They could have suggested Hirschmann cables, which I would have ordered. Instead, I contcted a local supplier and they're more than happy to sell me Woodhead cables. Maybe I'm being too hard on this particular company. I mean, they're probably struggling to stay alive. After all, they're ONLY charging us $1200 for an 8-port ETHERNET SWITCH! (no folks, I'm not kidding)

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Two words for you Gravitar: N-Tron. Moxa.

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We're not doing it out of choice.. this is a GM job and we're obligated to use the switch they tell us to use :(

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