I'm sure someone has gone over this time and time again.
Is there anyway to store "comments" on the processor, so that the next time the program is uploaded, without the "person uploading" having a mergable file, that the comments are there ??
If not, for those of you on contract positions or working for yourself, when you goto a machine/plant and upload the program, if there are no comments, life could be very miserable trying to figure it out, especially if the code is hundreds ir even thousands of lines long.......
Its a pain in the rear if you ask me not to have the comments there.... (assuming they were there in the first place!)
Full Version: Comments ?
Current no, there is no way to store comments on a processor. And yes, life can be very miserable if you do not have a descriptor file. I inherited a hundred or so PLCs with no documentation what so ever. It was fun for a while.
One thing I have been curious about is these new Logix5000 PLCs with the Compactflash cards. Does anyone know if there are a way to store the descriptor file or maybe even the ACH file and it still function properly with the PLC?
One thing I have been curious about is these new Logix5000 PLCs with the Compactflash cards. Does anyone know if there are a way to store the descriptor file or maybe even the ACH file and it still function properly with the PLC?
OK
I assume your talking AB, (being in this forum)
One of the great strides in programming was RSlogix storing all comments within one program file.. Those of us that grew with plc-2, plc5,AI series and Icom software. (as well as westinghouse, modicon,GE, SLC,Cutler-Hammer, Omrion and ever other plc). Walking in a new plant was a challenge, not a nightmare. Most of us presumed we would not have any docs. Heck, Most of us were upgrading from hardwire. We did not have many if any hard wire schematics. Much less plc inputs/outputs!. We had to rely on our understanding of machine process and our facination of controllers. Trying to make a living and follow the knowledge and understanding that processors were the way for controls. I just started on a new process and can't learn enougt
My have things have changed.
If you do not have docs, its not the end of world. Understand the process, Heck, any number of people can explain the steps to programming software. They teach it everday. But no one can teach you the ability to look at a process and know that you understand how it works and how to program it. That is a gift that you must explore.
The best way to learn a new process is to talk to operators!!!. They will tell you 99 percent of the problems with machine and 100 percent of what is wrong with your controls.
As to your first question, There is a way and many ways to store comments on a PLC.
But you must know HOW TO STORE IT,where it is stored, how it is stored and how to read it.
The wonderful ability of controls is the many ways to do something.
Always ask yourself, DO I UNDERSTAND WHAT WE ARE DOING!
Regardless If I am a programmer, operator, welder, electrician, supervisor or laborer. Look at programming from every aspect. If you are the laborer how can I safely help them
If you are the laborer, how can I safely help them
If you are the welder, how can I safely help them
If you are the electrician, how can I safely help them
If you are the supervisor how can I help them any!!
understand, The programmer's understanding and ability is the heart of any controls.With that said, It takes common sense and experience to be a welder, electrician, maybe supervisors (ha-ha), and laborers, yes, most folks with any sense dont stay in laborers, but I have seen many intelligent laborers.
Remember, All the above can operate without ant controls, but you can't operate without them installing and running equipment
TWControls I really don't know but planning to find out!
Boy, I have to work on my typing without a spell checker.
I guess I could proofread more!
I assume your talking AB, (being in this forum)
One of the great strides in programming was RSlogix storing all comments within one program file.. Those of us that grew with plc-2, plc5,AI series and Icom software. (as well as westinghouse, modicon,GE, SLC,Cutler-Hammer, Omrion and ever other plc). Walking in a new plant was a challenge, not a nightmare. Most of us presumed we would not have any docs. Heck, Most of us were upgrading from hardwire. We did not have many if any hard wire schematics. Much less plc inputs/outputs!. We had to rely on our understanding of machine process and our facination of controllers. Trying to make a living and follow the knowledge and understanding that processors were the way for controls. I just started on a new process and can't learn enougt
My have things have changed.
If you do not have docs, its not the end of world. Understand the process, Heck, any number of people can explain the steps to programming software. They teach it everday. But no one can teach you the ability to look at a process and know that you understand how it works and how to program it. That is a gift that you must explore.
The best way to learn a new process is to talk to operators!!!. They will tell you 99 percent of the problems with machine and 100 percent of what is wrong with your controls.
As to your first question, There is a way and many ways to store comments on a PLC.
But you must know HOW TO STORE IT,where it is stored, how it is stored and how to read it.
The wonderful ability of controls is the many ways to do something.
Always ask yourself, DO I UNDERSTAND WHAT WE ARE DOING!
Regardless If I am a programmer, operator, welder, electrician, supervisor or laborer. Look at programming from every aspect. If you are the laborer how can I safely help them
If you are the laborer, how can I safely help them
If you are the welder, how can I safely help them
If you are the electrician, how can I safely help them
If you are the supervisor how can I help them any!!
understand, The programmer's understanding and ability is the heart of any controls.With that said, It takes common sense and experience to be a welder, electrician, maybe supervisors (ha-ha), and laborers, yes, most folks with any sense dont stay in laborers, but I have seen many intelligent laborers.
Remember, All the above can operate without ant controls, but you can't operate without them installing and running equipment
TWControls I really don't know but planning to find out!
QUOTE(Been Around @ May 20 2006, 04:39 PM) [snapback]34243[/snapback]
OK
I assume your talking AB, (being in this forum)
One of the great strides in programming was RSlogix storing all comments within one program file.. Those of us that grew with plc-2, plc5,AI series and Icom software. (as well as westinghouse, modicon,GE, SLC,Cutler-Hammer, Omrion and ever other plc). Walking in a new plant was a challenge, not a nightmare. Most of us presumed we would not have any docs. Heck, Most of us were upgrading from hardwire. We did not have many if any hard wire schematics. Much less plc inputs/outputs!. We had to rely on our understanding of machine process and our facination of controllers. Trying to make a living and follow the knowledge and understanding that processors were the way for controls. I just started on a new process and can't learn enougt
My have things have changed.
If you do not have docs, its not the end of world. Understand the process, Heck, any number of people can explain the steps to programming software. They teach it everday. But no one can teach you the ability to look at a process and know that you understand how it works and how to program it. That is a gift that you must explore.
The best way to learn a new process is to talk to operators!!!. They will tell you 99 percent of the problems with machine and 100 percent of what is wrong with your controls.
As to your first question, There is a way and many ways to store comments on a PLC.
But you must know HOW TO STORE IT,where it is stored, how it is stored and how to read it.
The wonderful ability of controls is the many ways to do something.
Always ask yourself, DO I UNDERSTAND WHAT WE ARE DOING!
Regardless If I am a programmer, operator, welder, electrician, supervisor or laborer. Look at programming from every aspect. If you are the laborer how can I safely help them
If you are the laborer, how can I safely help them
If you are the welder, how can I safely help them
If you are the electrician, how can I safely help them
If you are the supervisor how can I help them any!!
understand, The programmer's understanding and ability is the heart of any controls.With that said, It takes common sense and experience to be a welder, electrician, maybe supervisors (ha-ha), and laborers, yes, most folks with any sense dont stay in laborers, but I have seen many intelligent laborers.
Remember, All the above can operate without ant controls, but you can't operate without them installing and running equipment
TWControls I really don't know but planning to find out!
I assume your talking AB, (being in this forum)
One of the great strides in programming was RSlogix storing all comments within one program file.. Those of us that grew with plc-2, plc5,AI series and Icom software. (as well as westinghouse, modicon,GE, SLC,Cutler-Hammer, Omrion and ever other plc). Walking in a new plant was a challenge, not a nightmare. Most of us presumed we would not have any docs. Heck, Most of us were upgrading from hardwire. We did not have many if any hard wire schematics. Much less plc inputs/outputs!. We had to rely on our understanding of machine process and our facination of controllers. Trying to make a living and follow the knowledge and understanding that processors were the way for controls. I just started on a new process and can't learn enougt
My have things have changed.
If you do not have docs, its not the end of world. Understand the process, Heck, any number of people can explain the steps to programming software. They teach it everday. But no one can teach you the ability to look at a process and know that you understand how it works and how to program it. That is a gift that you must explore.
The best way to learn a new process is to talk to operators!!!. They will tell you 99 percent of the problems with machine and 100 percent of what is wrong with your controls.
As to your first question, There is a way and many ways to store comments on a PLC.
But you must know HOW TO STORE IT,where it is stored, how it is stored and how to read it.
The wonderful ability of controls is the many ways to do something.
Always ask yourself, DO I UNDERSTAND WHAT WE ARE DOING!
Regardless If I am a programmer, operator, welder, electrician, supervisor or laborer. Look at programming from every aspect. If you are the laborer how can I safely help them
If you are the laborer, how can I safely help them
If you are the welder, how can I safely help them
If you are the electrician, how can I safely help them
If you are the supervisor how can I help them any!!
understand, The programmer's understanding and ability is the heart of any controls.With that said, It takes common sense and experience to be a welder, electrician, maybe supervisors (ha-ha), and laborers, yes, most folks with any sense dont stay in laborers, but I have seen many intelligent laborers.
Remember, All the above can operate without ant controls, but you can't operate without them installing and running equipment
TWControls I really don't know but planning to find out!
Boy, I have to work on my typing without a spell checker.
I guess I could proofread more!
Been Around - You have spell check. See THIS thread.
Almost forgot another reason for having the descriptors separate. Varying languages and I used to use two descriptor databases. One that had all my notes in it to jog my memory if called on a later date, and the other that had normal descriptors that you would present to the operator
Almost forgot another reason for having the descriptors separate. Varying languages and I used to use two descriptor databases. One that had all my notes in it to jog my memory if called on a later date, and the other that had normal descriptors that you would present to the operator
QUOTE(TWControls @ May 20 2006, 05:04 PM) [snapback]34246[/snapback]
Been Around - You have spell check. See THIS thread.
Almost forgot another reason for having the descriptors separate. Varying languages and I used to use two descriptor databases. One that had all my notes in it to jog my memory if called on a later date, and the other that had normal descriptors that you would present to the operator
Almost forgot another reason for having the descriptors separate. Varying languages and I used to use two descriptor databases. One that had all my notes in it to jog my memory if called on a later date, and the other that had normal descriptors that you would present to the operator
Why Would You keep your thinking from operator? My guess would be too much information for operator !!
Been there
Yes, There are many ways to doc. But there are no greater rescources than an operator.
It's been fun today, I visited here and actually wrote some code today WOW
I got something acomplished without a spell check. good luck to who reads my docs today!!!
QUOTE
Why Would You keep your thinking from operator? My guess would be too much information for operator !!
The notes usually were about the physical machine and operator so I could remember it. They guys who we built the machine for wouldn't need that stuff since they see it everyday.
Did you find the spell check?
QUOTE(TWControls @ May 20 2006, 05:23 PM) [snapback]34250[/snapback]
QUOTE
Why Would You keep your thinking from operator? My guess would be too much information for operator !!
The notes usually were about the physical machine and operator so I could remember it. They guys who we built the machine for wouldn't need that stuff since they see it everyday.
Did you find the spell check?
Yea, Exactly right. It's good to see someone with the grip on this subject. Sometimes too much info is a bad thing. And the ability to know the difference is priceless. I can see the day when newer programmers do not even consider actual process, just as we could not consider spell checkers. Our spell checkers were teachers!!!
I have spent many hours documenting programs that will never be read by anyone. As well dechipring programs with no docs. Just like the best weld you will ever make no one will ever see. That's the way folks need to consider programming. Program it where anyone with a little sense can understand. Sometimes this makes your program longer. Oh well.
Thats why I feel :
He who does the most with the least is the best is a relative statement.
It all is relative to process and understanding. NOT only programmer, but people that will excetute control system.
A system is no good if it can't be implemeted, don't care who writes it
QUOTE(Been Around @ May 20 2006, 05:40 PM) [snapback]34253[/snapback]
QUOTE(TWControls @ May 20 2006, 05:23 PM) [snapback]34250[/snapback]
QUOTE
Why Would You keep your thinking from operator? My guess would be too much information for operator !!
The notes usually were about the physical machine and operator so I could remember it. They guys who we built the machine for wouldn't need that stuff since they see it everyday.
Did you find the spell check?
Yea, Exactly right. It's good to see someone with the grip on this subject. Sometimes too much info is a bad thing. And the ability to know the difference is priceless. I can see the day when newer programmers do not even consider actual process, just as we could not consider spell checkers. Our spell checkers were teachers!!!
I have spent many hours documenting programs that will never be read by anyone. As well dechipring programs with no docs. Just like the best weld you will ever make no one will ever see. That's the way folks need to consider programming. Program it where anyone with a little sense can understand. Sometimes this makes your program longer. Oh well.
Thats why I feel :
He who does the most with the least is the best is a relative statement.
It all is relative to process and understanding. NOT only programmer, but people that will excetute control system.
A system is no good if it can't be implemeted, don't care who writes it
noope
See THIS thread for spell check
There is a way to store comments that will upload that I used to used in the old Omron C500F processor and have on rare occaision adapted to the AB world. It is very memory consuming and obtuse so I advise against it but here goes.
The Omron had an instruction called ASC which took a keyboard entered String and stuffed it into and ascii variable so you could port it to a printer of barcode unit. We would often place multiple ASC instructions pointed to a dummy ascii variable which contianed comments. For example "Next Rung Adds to For Count".
To adapt this to AB you must create a string or ascii data file and load you comment to it chracter by character. Viewing the file in data table format you can read your comment back. Kind of obtuse but for really critical hard to understand stuff can be a lifesaver.
The Omron had an instruction called ASC which took a keyboard entered String and stuffed it into and ascii variable so you could port it to a printer of barcode unit. We would often place multiple ASC instructions pointed to a dummy ascii variable which contianed comments. For example "Next Rung Adds to For Count".
To adapt this to AB you must create a string or ascii data file and load you comment to it chracter by character. Viewing the file in data table format you can read your comment back. Kind of obtuse but for really critical hard to understand stuff can be a lifesaver.
QUOTE(BobLfoot @ May 20 2006, 08:15 PM) [snapback]34264[/snapback]
To adapt this to AB you must create a string or ascii data file and load you comment to it chracter by character. Viewing the file in data table format you can read your comment back. Kind of obtuse but for really critical hard to understand stuff can be a lifesaver.
Yes, I was going to mention this method but I found that it was a pain in the rear. It seemed to cause more confusion than it did good and you would have to make sure that you kept the documentation to figure out how to use the documentation. If it is critical hard to understand stuff, say a nuclear reactor, I sure hope that they don't frequently loose the documentation.
Not sure about the new logo!!
Separated by a language?
Make sure you don't lose your spell checker
Reagrds
Mike
Separated by a language?
Make sure you don't lose your spell checker
Reagrds
Mike
QUOTE
One thing I have been curious about is these new Logix5000 PLCs with the Compactflash cards. Does anyone know if there are a way to store the descriptor file or maybe even the ACH file and it still function properly with the PLC?
Not now. I hope in future...
Also it wold be nice to use RSlogix5K to generate CF image without using controller itself.
But some people do this:
CF card formatted in FAT16, so it can be accessable via CF reader on the regular PC.
So you can take card AFTER controller saved the image and using PC add ACD file to it.
If someone comes without project, they can pull the card out, save ACD to PC and use it.
But:
L6x ser A compactflash slot is no accesable without removing the processor from the chassis.
And you have to leave a visible note to the new programmer to get ACD from CF and load updated copy if changes are made.
Thanks that's good to know. Would the same be true for the 1769-L32E?
Does it use a standard compact flash card? I have an L32E but have never used the CF slot.
Does it use a standard compact flash card? I have an L32E but have never used the CF slot.
QUOTE
Would the same be true for the 1769-L32E
Yes
QUOTE
Does it use a standard compact flash card? I have an L32E but have never used the CF slot.
1784-CF64 is the only card approved for timing, noise and temperature
I've seen a lot of 3-rd party cards failing after 2-3 cycles.
Same as a battery - you are on your own with aftermarket stuff.
Sorry, I hit the Add Reply button too quick and didn't finish the reason for asking.
Does it use a standard compact flash card? I have an L32E but have never used the CF slot.
Ok thanks.
Does it use a standard compact flash card? I have an L32E but have never used the CF slot.
QUOTE
1784-CF64 is the only card approved for timing, noise and temperature
I've seen a lot of 3-rd party cards failing after 2-3 cycles.
I've seen a lot of 3-rd party cards failing after 2-3 cycles.
Ok thanks.
If I'm not mistaken, the comments for structured text are stored in the controller. If you have a license for ST, you could create an ST routine and just stuff it with comments, info, and other documentation (I've even added "ASCII art" drawings to explain the geometry behind profile calculations.
Yes, it does waste memory, and yes, you do have to have the appropriate license, but its better than nothing.
M
Yes, it does waste memory, and yes, you do have to have the appropriate license, but its better than nothing.
M
Obviously understanding the process that is being controlled is the #1 way to understand the controller code. In Allen-Bradley's new Logix5000, tag names help with commenting.
As a programmer, the best way to help future readers of your code is to make it efficient and logical. I have seen too many programs where the programmer seemed like he was trying to invent a jigsaw puzzle. And I have seen others that were so beautifully written that I didn't need the comments at all to understand exactly what was going on.
Structure the code into groups by function, priority, and other criteria that is logical for the process. Don't overload your rungs, but don't spread out your instructions too much either. Group your I/O into sequencial, logical groups. Keep your communication code and mapping seperate from I/O and computation.
A great exercise is to read your own code without comments, and then let a colleague do so as well. I always read my own code without comments to make sure that I can at least understand myself.
Good luck.
$
As a programmer, the best way to help future readers of your code is to make it efficient and logical. I have seen too many programs where the programmer seemed like he was trying to invent a jigsaw puzzle. And I have seen others that were so beautifully written that I didn't need the comments at all to understand exactly what was going on.
Structure the code into groups by function, priority, and other criteria that is logical for the process. Don't overload your rungs, but don't spread out your instructions too much either. Group your I/O into sequencial, logical groups. Keep your communication code and mapping seperate from I/O and computation.
A great exercise is to read your own code without comments, and then let a colleague do so as well. I always read my own code without comments to make sure that I can at least understand myself.
Good luck.
$
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