Hello all,
I'm used to programming non AB PLCs such as Omron which have shortcut keys for making NO, NC contacts, coils and branching. My AB rep was trying to sell us on the ControlLogix platform for some projects. I see where it may have some benifits with the common database on larger projects. They claim people can program just as fast in RSLogix or faster than in Omron but I'm just having a hard time beleiving them. It seems to require use of the mouse way too much without enough keyboard shortcuts.
So I'd like to know how some of you AB programmers program effeciently. So far I've only programmed PLC's in ladder logic and have not used structured text of function block programming. Also how can you justify the cost of the software and hardware of the Logix5000 series on anything but a large scale integrated line?

1.) I'm unable to quickly create a branch around a contact in RsLogix. In Omron and other PLCs I simply use shortcut keys to make the branch however I want it. In RsLogix I have to either drag a branch from the toolbar or right click and add a branch. The branch is always inserted before the contact I want to branch around so then I have to drag the branch around or move the contact. Is there a way to do this faster?

2.) Shortcuts for adding a NO or NC contact or changing one into the other. Omron has shortcuts for this. RsLogix I have to either select from a toolbar or type in the XIC or XIO instructions to enter. To change I have to enter on the contact and change the C to a O or vice versa. Is there a more effiecent way to do this?

3.) Lack of rising edge and falling edge triggers in AB PLCs. I know AB have the OSR and OSF which can't always be used in branching or some PLCs. Just curious why everyone (that I'm aware of) has the triggers but AB. Instead of one instruction you have to have your instruction then another bit for the OSR and sometimes a coil also to do a rising or falling trigger.

4.) Forcing bits in Omron has a shortcut, but is it possible in RsLogix 5000 to force internal bits or only toggle like in RSLogix500?

5.) Cross referencing? Omron automatic in a separate window that I keep at the bottom of the screen. AB auto crossreference possible in RSLogix5000 or do I need to right click and select crossreference everytime?

Thanks,

Wulfgar

You've hit on most of the common complaints for RSLogix. I write a lot of code that tends to be pretty repetitive or at least follow a pattern. Ladder is saved entirely as text, for example "XIC tag OTE other_tag". Adding a semicolon at the end lets you type multiple rungs at once.

So I've got an excel spreadsheet that I paste my tag database into, sort and filter, and then paste the contents back into RSLogix. Then it's time to hit Enter and take a coffee break while the software cranks away. I can write hundreds of lines an hour, once the spreadsheets are set up. My next project is to write a nice VB interface.

It's gotten simpler with version 12 (I think), now that you can export and import to .L5K files (plain text). I haven't used it yet, but it looks promising.

On to the complaints: No, there is no shortcut to change XIC to XIO. I fondly remember the "/" button from my TIsoft days. That's a common complaint on the Rockwell forums. No, you can't force internal bits (why not? who knows). OSR's and OSF's work fine once you get used to them, but they do work differently. Enabling forces is a mouse action, although toggling bits is not.

There is (or was anyway) a way of keeping your cross-reference screen open while you program. I think Ctrl-Tab switches between ladder and xreference. Finally, the way you insert elements in ladder is moronic. "Ctrl-I" will switch you to the "other" unnatural mode, but branches will never come in right. Remarkably, however, if you copy a branch you already have, it will append a new branch in parallel, just as you want. I try to keep a branch on the clipboard at all times, but that's just me.

I've never tried Omron programming, but everytime I curse Logix programming I think, "Hey, it could be worse. I could be programming step7's in MicroWin." Good luck.

treellama,
Thanks for the feedback, not quite the answers I was looking for. I normally start by writing my I/O comments in excel and importing them into Omron or AB but have not tried import/export of ladder as text, I'll give that a try. I was hoping there was just something I was overlooking in RsLogix that would make things easy. I can't figure out why AB is so popular in North America when they ignore simple things like this in their software. Yet they charge more than anyone else for the privilege of using their hardware and software.
RsLogix5000 looks to be promising but they have not improved the ladder programming only added tag based addressing as the main selling point. The ladder looks the same as in RsLogix 500 but you can't import a 500 file directly into a 5000 project.

Try this.

Start a new rung in RSLogix. Double click the empty rung and you should get a type box.

Copy and paste the below into the text box.

In our office generally the preference of PLC programming software is.

AB way above anything else.

Omron not too bad, is getting better but is still way behind AB

Any other PLC programming tool
.
.
.
.

Siemens (nobody volunteers for those jobs)

My personal point of view is about than RSLogix is a very friendly, and graphically (like windows) interfase.
As we can see, in the chakorules's example, with a few mnemonics memorized, we can put a huge variety of different ladders configurations.
I like to program in RSLogix due this characteristics, and I think is more useful than the most of ladder logic editors.

Regards!

Not sure for the other versions, but i'm using Logix5000 rev 13 and it has a thing called "quick key" under Tools -> options -> Ladder Editor.

Basically allows you to configure almost any key to any instruction (including branches etc). For example, once enabled i can just press "b" on the keyboard and a branch is created. Same for XIC, XIO, OTE and any other instruction.

Very helpful once you memorize the keys.

There are a finite number of fixed keys (about 33) you can assign instructions to, but there's plenty enough for your most common instructions.

hope this helps your decision to try AB.

pumpkins,
That sounds better than typing the 3 letter instructions for the most common instructions you would use. The AB rep must not of been aware of the quick key. I'll look at that in the demo of RsLogix5000 rev 13 I have at home.

guillencito,
What other ladder editors have you used? Have you used Omron's Cxprogrammer? We only have CxProgramer 3.0 but I find it much faster to program than RsLogix500 mostly because of the shortcut keys and not having to drag the mouse around to do branching.

Snerkel,
Is Siemens latest PLC's and software really that bad? I'll never used them myself but a rep is trying to convince me to take a look at them.

chakorules,
I think I would have to use RsLogix a lot more to memorize all those and program in meumonics.

I think between asigning some shotcut keys and knowing some of the instruction codes I can get close to the speed of programming Omron other than the branching in RsLogix. Unloess I could asign some shortcuts to move the branching around since it doesn't put the branch around anything when inserted.

Thanks for all the feedback,

Wulfgar

I use CXP, S7, RSL500 and RSL5000 on a continual basis. I am still more fond of programming with AB but CXP does have some nice features. The one thing I really don't understand is why I have to draw the ladder in CXP. This is a big waste of time and when I want to back and add an instruction I have to move the ladder arround or CNTRL + ALT + arrow keys (or use the mouse) to shift things around.

Anyway back to your question. I mainly use the text feature in the RSLs. I generally know what I want each rung to look like when I start coding so I just hit the enter key at the begninng of a rung and type something like (XIC ? BST XIO ? NXB XIC ? BND XIC ? BST TON ? 1.0 0 0 NXB OTE ? BND) I find this much faster than anything else. If I find that the rung needs modified then I can use the mouse or quick keys. You can also do the above in word and paste it directly into RSL if that suits you.

The new Lgx5000 has a much better crossreference window that you may like and V14 is supposed to have a few more added features.

They all have their pros and cons, except S7 just cons, you'll just have to find what works best for you. The biggest problem is going from CXP to AB, back and forth everyday. That makes for some good times there.

Good Luck.

I also think you will find the online monitoring / debugging far easier on the AB. Being able to go to site go online once and every ladder file when opened is online showing live data. If you save while on line you get a snap shot of the states of all the integers, bits, even the ladder shows the plant state at the time without having to save anything else.

Open the software back at the office and you can still see exactly what state every contact, timer, and integer was in at the time the save was made.

No more monitoring some values in hex, or BCD or whatever, no converting to float and back, if you want an integer to become a float then just MOV or do maths mixing floats and integers to your hearts content.

If you want to do indirect addressing it is all done by something like
mytag[IndirectAdd]
no loading seperate registers or any of that rubbish.

Installing a new card is easy, no worries about addresses being moved.

Timer presets are integer, the preset for instance can be adjusted by doing a move, nice and easy.

I guess we write about 25% less code in an AB than in Omron to do the same tasks.

I agree completely with snerkel's point of view.
I have a few experience in RSLogix, NAiS, Keyence, S7,PL7, and DirectLogix and for all those softwares I found most friendly the AB software.
In fact, with S7 is easy to work (for me) almost as RSLogix.
I think that depending the software we used to program, is the preference for everyone.
For example, NAiS is too hard for me, but for a partner (who used to program in NAiS) this software is wonderful Did you understand me?

Regards!

Hello,
I'm back to using AB again after changing jobs and using Omron mostly and some old Mitshibishi GPP for the last year. I'm now using RsLogix 5000 ver 15.02 but I see they still have not added any macos or VBA support or the ability to add shortcuts to anything other than instructions. So no improvements in the user freindlyness of RsLogix since ver. 13; in this regard AB is still way behind at least Omron.

It looks like I need to try to memorize the instructions for AB or start using the mouse alot in order to program in RsLogix 5000. I see a reference to macros in RsLogix 500 in the AB knowledgebase so why not in RsLogix 5000. And what happened to ABs software forum that used to be http://www.software.rockwell.com/forum? Were they getting too many postings of problems that they didn't want everyone else to see?

From Beryl
"The one thing I really don't understand is why I have to draw the ladder in CXP. This is a big waste of time and when I want to back and add an instruction I have to move the ladder arround or CNTRL + ALT + arrow keys (or use the mouse) to shift things around."

Why can't I do this in AB? In Omron I can insert contacts, add branches change contact type all without touching the mouse or needing to remember mnuemonics. So how is this a waste of time compared to AB which doesn't even have shortcut keys for doing this?

Sorry for the really late response

Wulfgar

This post certainly raises some good points. Let me weigh in if I might.

1. "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still." For whatever personal style and preference reasons a person will choose AB, Omron, Siemens or other PLC. We can argue pros and cons till the sun supernovas and no one will be convinced to change from their favorite.

2. I used Toshiba PLC's {TPDS Dos and TPDS Win} Software and Omron PLC's {SYSWIN} and got very used to the Function Keys for writing code.

3. Six years ago I took a job where AB was the rule. After much lamenting the loss of my function keys, I learned the mnemonics and began writing code in EXCEL. I've come to find it very efficient and can write code equally fast on both platforms.

4. AB/Rockwell you could add the ability to tie user selected instructions to the Function Keys. THis would be a definite enhancement.

5. Omron / Toshiba you could take a page from AB/Rockwell and develop a cross platform database that allows one set of tags to be used for both HMI and Ladder logic.

The wiz is now out $0.02.

Just to add on what Chakorules mentioned,

This is only applicable to repetitive codes. Most of my alarms logics are generated so, cutting down development times

1. Connect an additional monitor to your laptop.
2. Configure XP on 2 monitor mode.
3. Open RS Logix in one screen and the Excel in other.
4. Browse to excel copy from column 'A', (say 'A6')
5. Move your mouse to RS Logix, double click on an empty rung -> Paste
6. Back to excel and copy from next data in cell 'A7'
7. Repeat as above.

Take note -> prepare the excel sheet by adding the correct syntax in the first row and generate the rest by merely dragging.

Attached is the sample excel sheet

Again this only applies to repetetive code but I have with RSlogix 5000 been able to open the L5K file with Notepad and Cut a complete routine into another notepad. Then using Global search and replace I cahnge the routine and Paste into back into original L5K. Then I can import the whole improved program. Means I need to know mnemonics and pay attention, but it works well for me.

Thanks for the additional info BobLfoot and Chavak.
I do try to do repetetive work in Excel whenever I can regardless of the platform. Thanks for the example excel file Chavak, I should be able to use something from it to merge with what I've used for Omron.
My questions were mainly for once the repetetive work is out of the way and you are into the debugging or coding that you have to modify in AB. It would sure be nice if AB gave us some more tools and focused some on making things more user freindly. I think these are pretty basic things that most software programs have that AB has overlooked or ignored. Ideally I would like to have VBA support in RsLogix so I can make my own tools like I can in Excel or AutoCad.
I guess I have to learn mnumonic programming in the meantime which seems so oldschool to me.

Thanks,

Wulfgar

Wulfgar,

VBA is available in RSLogix "Professional" versions of each package. Basically, you have to pay extra for it.

RSLogix5, 500 and 5000 all have "Quick Keys" available. They are not enabled by default. They use the alphabetic keys rather than function keys. Try searching the on-line help for "quick" to find out how to enable the feature in each package.

The following is from the on-line help in RSLogix5000:
======================
Assign Quick Keys
Use this dialog to configure hot keys for use in the ladder editor. The list of keys lists the instruction and the key which is currently assigned to it.

1. Double click on a _Free space in the instruction column or click on the Assign Key button to choose the first available unassigned key.

The Ladder Element browser appears.

2. Select the ladder element or instruction to which you want to assign the quick key.

The default quick key mappings are:

Quick Key: Instruction:
b Branch
c CTU
d GEQ
f XIO
l OTL
o OTE
t TON
u OTU
x XIC
3. Click on Assign Key to associate the element or instruction with the selected key

In the Ladder editor, whenever you want to add the instruction or elements to which the quick key is assigned simply press the key, and the instruction or element is added to the routine.

Accessing the Quick Key Configuration dialog

To access the Quick Key Configuration dialog, from the Tools menu, choose Options. The Workstation Options dialog appears. From this dialog, click on the Ladder Editor category from the Categories list, check the Enable Quick Key checkbox, and then click on the Configure button.
======================

Now all that being said, I never use the Quick Keys feature. I really don't see a very tight relationship between raw key pounding speed using shortcuts and my productivity as a programmer. I tend to use a lot more cut and paste of routines, groups of rungs, rungs, and parts of rungs. If I'm reduced to entering single instructions, I'm already crawling. How fast I am crawling is not that important to me. This isn't where I spend significant portions of my effort, so optimizing it won't yield much benefit. Also, in a lot of on-line troubleshooting situations I am using my clients computer which I can't really set up to suit me.

If you haven't used it before, check out the "library" feature in RSLogix5 and 500. It can be a big help for repetitive code.

I actually shy away from using Excel as an editor due to the automatic formatting of numbers Excel likes to do. I tend to use a text editor instead for copying and massive search and replace operations.

I think once you get over the things that are different than you are used to and learn to use RSLogix effectively, you will change your opinion about it being "behind".

Good luck,

Thanks Mellis even the old wizard learned something new today. I'll be checking out "hot keys" tonight.

Interesting discussion. I have used both and would say the omron is a dog and rslogix5000 will probably be alright by the time it gets to V20. Would choose rslogix over the omron everytime. Looking at your excel spreadsheet makes me frown the whole idea of rslogix5000 is to get away from using meaningless B registers and using usefully named bits and words. Should be able to put together a program that needs no additional descriptors other than the actual tags. In this way if someone ever uploads it they will still have a reasonable chance of figuring out what is happening.

So you believe in using the complete 64 character tag name also? I love self documented code.

I'm using RsLogix 5000 Pro/Network edition and I see no mention of VBA, are you sure 5000 has VBA support? Is there an addon that is needed?



What version of CxProgrammer did you use and what Omron PLC would you consider a dog? I find it hard to beleive that anyone would consider CxProgrammer ver. 3 to 6 and a CS or CJ PLC a dog. I would agree if your talking about there much older PLC's and software.

The quick keys are nice but limited to only instructions and not other commands. I would like to be able to assign anythin to a quick key ranging from the right click menu or the toolbars. Or even one step further and have the customization like Autocad where I can creat my own toolbars, pulldowns, macros.

As far as tag names I like to keep them short to reduce the amount of typing unless you do all copy and paste, and then have a detailed description with the tag. This way the code is still quick to code and descriptive.

Thanks again for everyon's input

Wulfgar

I try to keep them brief, and use aliasing to real I/O as much as possible. Then even if you don't have a electrical schematic and are fault finding you still have some chance. I guess you probably know already but you can greatly improve program scan time and consistency if you alias the real I/O in control logix processors and use the alias throughout rather than the real I/O. You don't get hung up with RPI times this way.

I'd heard that somewhere while I was doing a CLGX V13 Redundant system.

Looks like I have to eat my words to some extent. It appears RSLogix5 and 500 pro have VBA included, but RSLogix5000 does not (at least that I can find).

Sorry for the confusion,