Hey all,

First I would like to start out by saying that this forum site is excellent. I love coming here to read all the posts and learn lots of things that I never would have figured out on my own, it is an awesome resource and I'd like to thank everyone that participates.

Lately I've felt somewhat unhappy with my current position. I'm and electronics technician and we do a little bit of everything but what I really love to do is programming and networking or anything that has anything to do with that. Unfourtunatly that's about 15% of my job. The rest no longer interests me to be honest.

We have 1 projects person in our department and that job I feel would be ideal for me, I'd love to be in charge of projects all the time (I get projects from time to time but not very often). The funny thing is that our projects person refuses to learn anything new, if it's not a Mitsubishi PLC then he wants nothing to do with it. That's fine but I think that if you want to be really good at your job then you need to be able to learn new things. I've tought myself PLC programming, HMI programming, Citect, Opto 22 and some other scale head programming and such (Our company refuses to send us to school for anything, also very frustrating). Much more than our project guy knows and I feel frustrated that I've put the time in and still am not getting anywhere.

My question to you guys is this:

What would you do in this situation? I would like to go to school for maybe networking or something like that but I'm not sure what route I want to go, I really like doing PLC programing and HMI and SCADA stuff too but I'm not sure where to go for that. I think the problem is that since our company won't send us to schooling of any kind then I have no accreditation or proof that I know what I know.

I really respect you guys and I'm sure other people have been in a similar situation, I would like to hear about what other people have done in an effort to try and plan my future. Thanks guys, I appreciate any response!

Project management is not networking or programming most of the time either. Every job has it's upsides and downsides. I'd really like to get back into doing more of that stuff too but right now my job is almost pure project management and I get very little time to do any of that stuff.



One thing you will find out over time...familiarity is something that usually keeps you out of trouble. Doing the same old things in the same way is usually the safe way that keeps you gainfully employed. Getting creative and experimental and doing it safely is always a challenge but a necessary one. Whenever you try to innovate, you are stepping out on a limb. There is a good chance that something can go wrong and/or the unforseen consequences can get you. Of course at the same time at least in the U.S., companies are almost forced into innovating constantly just in order to continue to compete.

As for companies refusing to "send you to school", I'm pretty much all done with that stuff. With rare exceptions, I've found that "sending guys to school" frequently doesn't actually improve anything because many training classes are pretty poor. You can often learn/teach yourself far more without going to school. Plus, sending someone to school means that you can drill information into them. It does not develop skills. Skills are learned by repetition and apprenticeship (learn by doing). That's one reason that I like the way Ron Beaufort runs his classes...he emphasizes skills over "book smarts". His classes don't carry "Allen Bradley certification", however.



If you really want accreditation, then take night classes and get it yourself. I worked my way through school. It would have been nice not to have done so but I feel that I put a lot more value in my education because I did do that.

You are also asking a company to give you training in something that may not necessarily make you a better electronics technician...so they may not see any value in that. Plus you said that they've got one guy who runs projects. Well, doesn't sound to me like there's room for two. So unless there's a problem with bench strength (concern that the current project guy might not be there), there's no value in training techs to take that person's place. It would be nice if they felt that training their employees is valuable, but either they feel that this particular training has very little value or they don't value their employees.

I can also tell you just how expensive it gets. To send one guy to one of those "5 day intensive courses" will cost $1500-$3000 for the course itself, and you can probably double that to cover hotel costs, travel, and food. There's also a somewhat hidden expense of providing coverage while you are absent which can be just as much or more expensive. Local community college courses are somewhat less expensive but unless you are taking them at night (and perhaps expecting to count it as time on the clock?), those can get to be just as much or more expensive. Depending on the size and budget of the company, that's a heck of a lot of cash to be putting out for training.

Of the last 3 companies I worked for, one did no training at all outside of the federally required training. I did a lot of in-house stuff with them. One would re-imburse for half the cost (except apprenticeships that got 100%) if you requested it ahead of time, took the class, and scored at least a B average. The class had to at least have some relationship to your job. And the current one pays 100% of everything but usually does it through reimbursement and again, you've got to ask for it ahead of time and get approval. The training budget is enormous for the current one but not unlimited. Frankly, the training benefits alone are staggering and I've never seen anything like it anywhere else. I think that my general impression is that both companies were in the minority, not the majority since both are well recognized for how much they did in terms of employee development.

You are much more likely to be able to get equipment manuals and/or request hardware to use in the shop and for educational purposes. $6K can get you an entire CompactLogix PLC (1769-STRT4), programming software, laptop, Ethernet switch, and perhaps even some additional parts. Or it can get you one 5 day intensive training class with nothing to show for it at the end except the books, notes, and probably some sort of certificate. Frankly, I'd rather spend money on the hardware and work with the technicians that are willing to learn on their own.

You have accreditation on your resume and in the job interview because you demonstrate knowledge and skill in the interview. Let me put it this way. When I went to college in the 1990's, "computer XXX" (fill in the blank with your choice of science, engineering, "information science", etc.) was still all the rage. Trouble is that they graduated lots of people with "computer knowledge" but not the right kind of knowledge and without much in the way of skills. All the Computer XXX majors complained that when they got out of school, all the potential employers wanted either a degree and 4 years of experience, or just 4 years of experience. It seems that accreditation was only useful in addition to experience for a few positions. That remains true even today. Most graduating computer science majors end up stuck in jobs as either technicians, technical support (answering phones), or system administrators. It's only once they've done their tour of duty in those positions for 2-5 years that they manage to move up to other things which may involve projects bigger than teaching a secretary how to turn on both the PC and the monitor.

Anyways...just my thoughts. I recognize the frustration because I'm on the other end...how to find the money to do employee development. The cost is staggering which is why it is hard to find money to do it. Most of my smaller projects cost less than sending a technician to a single training class. And just like doing preventative maintenance...it's very hard to show the direct benefit on the bottom line.

I'm in your local area check with the local suppliers in our area they are providing free or low cost seminars they are during the day to see if the company will let you go to seminar on co time but no expense. this might get your foot in the door for training

Were I work we get some grants from the state for training.

what plc's do you have in plant that training would help on.



tom

We do mainly Mitsubishi stuff here so I'm pretty familiar with them, but Allen-Bradley or Siemens or anything like that I am not familiar with at all. I also just started playing with Opto 22 and Citect stuff, but I'm pretty much just teaching that to myself.

Opto 22 is nice because it is extremely low cost. That's also the problem. I just got through removing 6 boards of the stuff which was 95% analog I/O. Don't get me wrong...I think that Opto 22 makes some of the best relays and such in the business. However, their PLC & I/O leaves a heck of a lot to be desired in terms of stability.

Why do I say this? If the power blinks, the way their protocol is written, it is difficult for a PLC to detect this. And since you have to specifically send configuration to the "brain boards" to tell them which ones are inputs and which are outputs, if the power ever blinks, the "brain boards" go stupid and all your I/O configuration vanishes in a puff of logic. And then that's when chaos ensues.

Citect isn't bad. It's comparable to most of the "big boys" in terms of HMI's, and it has an incredibly strong following in Australia but not so much elsewhere in the world. It would help immensely though if you study up on AB & Siemens equipment if you do plan on branching out because although again, Mitsubishi has a big following in some areas, the majority of the world uses either one of those two PLC vendors. Generally speaking at this point even competing vendors have been trying to make their programming software look like one of those two vendors. I can honestly say that the only PLC's I've seen that are strikingly different (and will probably stay that way) are GE Fanuc PAC's, and perhaps ABB PAC's. I can say the same thing about a variety of strange little low end PLC's suitable for automating a machine or a pumping station but not much else. Omron is the big player in this market, but since I've never had exposure to it, I never worried about it.

Paul,
The issues with training are exactly why I started our PLCMentor training web site (unfortunately we dont do Mitsubishi). It seems that all training is now days is a quick cram of information (some useful) and a pretty certificate pumped out at the end. Two weeks after leaving the training most of the attendees are hazy on what they learned. Dont even try to calculate the costs of the course, travel, lodging, etc. Training has to be ongoing and it has to be applied. I used to teach at a community college and I found that half of my students that worked in area facilities were not allowed to touch a PLC at work and their company was the one that wanted them to attend!

I can count the number of training classes I attended over the last 20 years on one hand. Grab a book, the internet, and best yet - as you mentioned - the equipment and you are on your way. I will also add that what you have done is usually more important to a prospective employer than what classes you have taken.

Russell

That's why I tried to separate "accreditation" (the pretty certificate) from the skills, the thing that the certificate is supposed to show. I try to go out of my way to help our guys out and I try to supply them with "toys" in the shop whenever possible. I just bought a CompactLogix PLC and some other stuff for the shop purely for training purposes. I had no intention of putting any of that stuff into a project anywhere. Those that have the interest and desire to learn will do so. Those that don't, won't. The ones that want to learn will either feel "rushed" or bored to sleep in the standard "training" classes. Best I can hope to offer is continuously make opportunities available. At the last company I worked for, I took the PLC fleet from the "lock-and-key" status to virtually wide open. It happened in phases...as the electrical staff became more knowledgeable, I gradually removed the various locks on the system. There were some hiccups (err, learning experiences) but we eventually got to an almost entirely open system. And we didn't have any of the doomsday pronouncements that were made when I started this process.