Copyright

[kirso 0]

Hello all, Has anyone looked into the copyright issues in posting a machine plc program. I ask because I had an issue once with a company we use that supplied a machine (a pallatiser). I was asked to put in a new pallet pattern which I did.But during my hols the company I work for got the machine suppliers to supply another pattern . This was written over the top of my changes.When I talked to them they said that all changes to the plc prog had to be via them.(at no small cost).They quoted a copyright issue.. Anyone else had a similar situation ? Do you full time programmers claim copyright over your programmes or is it the property of the buyers who paid for the work to be done ?

[Ken Moore 23]

I think every case is different. As a end user we put verbage in our contracts stating that we own the code and require copies of all programs. Some vendors will not do this, and we go elsewhere. Most vendors will, but require a lot of legal documentation releasing them from any liability. On some systems we can make changes with the vendors approval. Like I said earlier every situation is unique. Ken

[ianbuckley 0]

Every situation is different, but a lot depends on how the program was purchased. Whether the program was made as a work for hire or as part of a machine that was purchased can make a difference. Many times, a license agreement can work out details. Usually the vendor is trying to protect against someone using their work to create competitive products. An end user is allowed to make changes for the machine they purchased (as long as they take responsibility for the consequences) as long as the original software is only used on the machine for which it is provided.

[kirso 0]

No one has mentioned the situation of downloading programs to the forums for assistance. Because of what has been said it seems that you may be on iffy ground if you download work that is not your own. Which is one of the original points I was making.

[Chris Elston 78]

Ok first of all let me put on my MrPLC hat... If you haven't already, you should read our legel disclaimer about posting code in the forums. http://www.mrplc.com/tos.shtml Ok let me put on my Machine Builder hat. Let me tell you a little bit about our philosphy in building machines. A customer contacts the company I work for and ask us to build them a custom engineered machine. A customer pays us for engineering time to design the machine, this includes electrical engineering time and software. We build the machine for the customer "custom made" just for them and no one else, they paid for OUR engineering services. That means, we feel the customer OWNS everything. They own the rights to the concept of the machine, they own rights to the software. They own everything. If I was the customer, I would expect no different after paying millions of dollars for a custom engineered solution. Wouldn't you? Besides, what are you gonna do, download the software from the forum into your machine and expect it to run? Not likely. If you are building a cookie cutter machine, lets take for example a mold machine. That is a cookie cutter machine, a company spends their own money and investment time to pay overhead to the engineers to develop the code for the mold machine. By all rights, the machine builder that makes mold machines then owns the copy rights to the mold machine software and sells the machine cheaper than a custom engineered solution. The way I see it, I am on the custom engineered end. Even if you had my code it's not like your gonna get rich from looking at my code. Your not going to see anything different in my code than any other PLC programmer that has been doing this for "X" amount of years. If you post code from a cookie cutter machine builder, I think your putting yourself at risk here at mrplc.com, but if you are asking about bits and pieces, I don't think anyone should have a problem with that. The whole machine codes I post are customers I've talked to that don't care that I share my code with the whole world. They have the same attitude, what is someone gonna do with it once they have it? Most likey they will just learn new ideas, and if that makes that person a better programmer, then that just makes me feel better that I helped one other person... So enjoy the downloads, but make sure you know what you are doing before you post and share entire code segments on mrplc. If you do, then our terms of service apply...I've had to delete so stuff before. http://www.mrplc.com/tos.shtml

[Ken Moore 23]

Generally speaking I, on this and other forums, usually just post code snippets. A user will have "A" and need to get B, I'll post a snippet that helps with that little point. Can you run a machine with it? No Way. The user is going to need a lot more code to do anything useful. I have posted one complete program in the download area, it's for a make believe washing machine. I posted it for educational purposes, it is nothing special, anyone with experience could duplicate it's function. I would never post a cutomer's code, the things I post are Mine to give away.

[kirso 0]

Thanks for the replies. I did not mean to start an argument just a general question , because of the situation I had found myself in. I am not "a programmer" but just the poor electrician who has to fix the faults as and when the machine breaks down. But also do a bit of alteration when my bosses find the original requirements of the machine have now slightly altered. Again interesting points of view from both ends.

[Chris Elston 78]

I don't think you started an agrument. It's just moral point of views from different people and the way we conduct our businesses. It's nice to know both sides of the fence. So that way we learn from being openminded.

[Guest interested spectator]

The software I write is transfered to the customer for his use on one machine , and is not for use anywhere else - whilst the customer purchases the right to use the software , they don't pay for the right to decompile it etc . I now protect all special blocks that I write , since most are for siemens , this is not so difficult , there is no need for any one to delve inside the blocks . All the blocks can effectivly be disabled by setting one M bit . I don't this this is unreasonable , I am not expensive , and it doesn't cost much is someone requires the software for another application .

[darrenj 0]

interesting replies! I had wondered the same thing myself..I am just finsihing a retrofit on a mcachine that the manufacture would not give us the program. (They wanted mega bucks to upgrade!). So i sat down and started from scratch. I always tell my customers that the program is theres after to make changes..Not to copy and pass onto other plants.. At the same plant we are dealing with anightmare left by another OEM..I wont mention names (APV)..They installed a machine (A milk fat machine/ compomaster) and we have nothing but problems since they brought it in... Problem #1 The product was developed in Denmark..No one in Canada had the program or the expertise to trouble shoot/ fix the machine..(Try getting a hold of someone in denmark at 2.00pm out time..) Problem #2 They will NOT give you the program..so you are working blind.. Problem #3..the techs they send..Seriously i got a call from the plant electritian saying there was a tech on site to fix the machine but could i bring my laptop down becouse the tech didnt have RSlogix on his...I brought it down and asked.."You do have the password right?"..I got that blank look.."password?"..yep..password..He said he had to make a call...after an hour he came baxk and said he would have to come back another day becouse they couldnt get hold of anyone in denmark See i have to stop now...i am going on a rant !!!! :)