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Trouble Connecting to Older Versions of CPU 311 & 331

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Hi there. I have some experience but not much with newer GE PLC's and software; however, I ran across a GE 90-30 system that is approximately 20 years old. There are a total of three PLC's on site, one CPU331 and two CPU311's. All three were programmed with LM90 v 1.04 and there is no copy of the programs except for a physical printout. I was attempting to replace the 311 CPU's before they failed and upgrade the 331 to a CPU 350. In addition, because the site had no digital copy of either program I was going to convert them to the latest and greatest so they would be protected in the event of a failure. When we arrived on site the PLC with the 331 CPU only had the PWR LED light on. The OK and RUN lights were not on. I expected to have potential issues connecting with this one because of a possible failure; but, I couldn't connect with either VersaPro or Cimplicity. I used Scan Comm Test to verify the settings and insure there was no port conflict without any problems but no matter what I tried I could not connect to any of the three. The two CPU 311's were were in normal run mode and operating correctly by the way. I am not sure the vintage of each of the three CPU's but I know the job was done in 1990 so I am guessing it is a very early edition. My question is are there some versions of these CPU's which will not allow me to connect with VersaPro 2.04 Professional and Cimplicity ME 6.1. I do a lot of service work for GE and have used both of these programs many times both serially and via ethernet so I am confident after 8 hours I would have figured out if I was making a stupid mistake. My current thought is these versions do not have the firmware that will allow me to communicate with either program and will need to use LM90 to extract the program and then I will be free to convert it to either VersaPro or ME and install that program on the new CPU's. Any thoughts? I also realize that the CPU that is not running may be failed and retrieving that program may be challenging at best. I did try cycling power to the units but made sure to change to a new battery as to not lose the only working copy of the programs. Another note on how I was attempting to connect w/o a copy of the program. I created a blank project/folder and edited the hardware config to match the CPU config including baud rate and everything else in both ME and VersaPro. I chatted with Fanuc and they confirmed this should work but I did not mention the possibility of a firmware problem because it did not occur to me until I had already left the site for the day. Thankfully the system operates well enough in its current state to protect the facility in the event of a power failure (This system controls the emergency generators for a telecommunications site) so I was comfortable leaving as is until i can get some assistance. I have also been telling the customer for over a year that this needed to be done and they of course dragged their feet. Anyways any thoughts are much appreciated as I have exhausted my limited technical know-how

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It looks like you are on the right track. Yes the very early versions of these CPU's will work with LM90 only and if the are as early as you think, you may even have problems with the last version of LM90 as there was a change made around the transition from LM90 2? to LM90 version 3. You should be able to upgrade the CPU311 processors to their last version by purchasing PROM chips from your local GEIP supplier. Once you get everything upgraded, I suggest that you get Proficy Machine Edition Software. Check the CPU's for EPROM chips, if there you should be able to recover logic from them. An easy way to tell is to look for empty PROM sockets, if there are no empty sockets there is most likely an EPROM installed. Good Luck, and this is a good example of the reliability of the product when properly implemented.

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Thanks Russ. I am trying to get the PROM chips on order as we speak. I do have cimplicity 6.1 and intend on using this to upload the program to the pc and then download into the new cpu's. I have decided to replace all three while i can as the cost is minimal and a failure would be disastrous. One thing id like to clarify. With the upgraded firmware the fact that they used LM 90 1.04 will no longer be an issue? Thanks again for your time.

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Cimplicity 6.1 is a SCADA/HMI Development system and will not work for PLC up/down loading. You will need LM90 in some form to upload from the old CPUs. I would try the last version, if this does not work get an older version from GEIP or your supplier. Once the hardware is upgraded to current versions you will be able to download to them with Proficy ME or VersaPro, just remember that VersaPro is also about 5 years old and no longer supported by GEIP. To give your customer a true up-to-date system they need Proficy ME.

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I apologize i have both cimplicity and product me and don't always use the terminology correctly. My. overall goal is to replace all three CPU's with ME programs installed on them. So replacing the PROM's on all three of the (old cpu's) will allow me to recover the programs with ME or am i understanding that i will still probably need lm 90? I was able to locate lm 90 floppy disks v 6.01 so far but that is all. The only reason i would spend the money on the prom's at this point would be if it were necessary to communicate with them. In the end all three cpu's are going to be replaced with new ones so the less i have to do to the old ones the better. Thanks again for all your help.

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Why do I get the feeling that you are not telling us everything? If you replace the Prom chips before you upload, you will NEVER get the data off the CPU's unless the logic is now in EPROM chips. As I said you must use LM90 to upload from a VERY old CPU, if you can tell us what version is there more detail can be given to you. If the LM90 6.01 Diskettes are still good you should be able to install these on an older PC that is running DOS or maybe Win9x, I do not recall right now, and do not have time to look it up. HTH

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I apologize if the way i've described things is confusing or makes it sound as if i am witholding something that certainly isn't my intention. I am trying to gather as much information about this as possible and some of the suggestions i have mentioned are coming from the supplier of the plc components. I do appreciate the advice as i've definitely learned i need to be cautious who i listen to. I will follow your advice and keep you updated. Thanks again.

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The latest version or two will run on Win2k or WinXP, You will also need the 'Patch' Good luck with it and be sure to verify yor uploads. If you have any trouble with uploading, try to get just the 'Logic' separate from everything else, the hardware configuration is easy enough to build from scratch and it sometimes causes problems with an upload.If this works, great. Have fun with it and let us know how it turns out. BTW: GEIP now has a PAC system in the RX3i family that is very economical to use in a "High Availability" situation such as you have here. The existing program can be imported and you can sell your customer a "redundant" system that will assure them many more years of reliable control, installed and maintained by you. Edited by RussB

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Russ, Thank you for the information on the patch and the RX3i family of controllers. Most of my experience is with 90/30 and Versamax PLC that GE Zenith Controls utilizes for their emergency power systems. I do not have the level of knowledge I would like to have and definitely appreciate the information. If someone like myself wanted to further their knowledge of PLC's and programming are there any avenues that you would suggest? The more proficient I can become the easier my job becomes and have yet to find this type of training. Jason AZ

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Jason, Back when the Series 90 product line was relatively new, GE Fanuc made a strong push to get every 90-30 up to a minimum firmware level. If the system you're working with never got upgraded, that may have something to do with your problem. I don't remember the exact firmware level, but I think it was in the 2.xx range. I second Russ' recommendation to use Logicmaster for extracting the program. If you can locate the installation disks for Logicmaster, be aware that versions earlier than about 5.xx could only be installed on PCs with small hard drives (less than 512 meg I think). Another possibility beyond Logicmaster is to see if you can locate a 90-30 handheld programmer. That ought to work with those old CPUs. If the program is very long it will be a tedious process to transcribe the instruction list, but if that's the only way you can get communications established ... If the "OK" LED doesn't come on, your CPU331 is probably shot and the program in it may be unrecoverable. Normal operation is for the OK LED to blink while the CPU does its inital self-check then remain on steadily. One thing you can try with that one is to remove all of the I/O modules so that you only have the CPU and the power supply in the rack and then cycle power to the system to see if you can get the OK LED to come on. If there are any "smart" modules in the rack its possible that there are firmware version issues between the CPU and the smart modules.

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Thanks for your help Steve. I was most concerned with that Ok light as well. I've had to troubleshoot plc's that have stopped due to a fault but this has me concerned. I am less than confident that the plc has an EPROM (i didn't check) but the original logic is printed out and on site. Obviously worse case it would have to be reprogrammed in product me. There is a 90-30 hand held on site and it did communicate win the two Cpu 311's but did not react the same with the 331. This lends credence to your assumption that the cpu is shot. As i said all three programs are printed out and can be reprogrammed if it comes to that. The site is a couple hours away and will be making a return trip next week to attempt to extract what i can. I have lm90 v 6.01 and 9.05 available to utilize for this. One thing i will ask (although i think i know the answer) is using the utility available for dl that attempts to clear the faults and put the cpu into run mode? Im assuming the ok light being out probably negates the possibility of using this, although after trying everything else that has been recommended i suppose it can't hurt. Also, i did try cycling the power to.this cpu after replacing the battery (i did not remove the i/o modules but will attempt to do so) and it did not seem to help. Thanks Russ and Steve.

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If the handheld won't communicate with the CPU331, then I don't think there's any way you'll be able to extract anything from it. The handheld has the same ability to clear faults and put the CPU back into run mode, but it can't do anything if it can't establish communications. This is a long shot given that the OK LED is off, but the 15-pin port on the power supply provides 5 VDC to power the handheld or an RS232/485 converter. With a voltmeter you should see 5 VDC between pins 5 and 7 of the port. If you don't, all the more reason to remove all of the I/O modules to see if something is dragging down the 5 VDC supply. Excessive current draw that drags the voltage below approximately 4.5 volts would cause the PLC to drop out of run. I don't know for sure whether it would also drop out the OK LED.

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Thank you for the information it all seems very logical and appreciate your help. If for instance the program was stored on an eprom but the cpu is damaged and cannot connect, how could that eprom be utilized to recover the data? We had been planning on installing a new cpu 350 with a proficy me converted program. Any insight on what can be done with a recovered eprom would be appreciated. Thanks. The job site is a few hours away so im tryin to be prepared for anyhin we may encounter so im trying to gather as much info as possible. Thank you again.

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If there is an EPROM present, I believe you can remove it from one CPU and install it in a different one. Then you would have to configure the CPU with the EPROM to load its program from it on power-up. That's speculation on my part. I've never actually done it. Did you receive a private message from me regarding training?

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I haven't been home to check. I am using my phone to reply currently. I will be back there in an hour or so to double check and will let you know. Thanks again Steve.

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I did check and did receive the message steve. I am actually headjng back to phoenix from flagstaff as we speak. I will contact you further regardin the training. Thanks again.

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