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TimWilborne

Looking for new options in PLC Brands

23 posts in this topic

I'm looking for opinions for new options as far as PLC brands As many of you know, I work primarily with AB PLCs. But the Micrologix shortage along with some disagreements my local distributor has with The Automation Store has left me virtually unable to purchase AB PLCs. The shortage is starting to ease but I think it has be a huge eye opener to many of us to not only have alternate suppliers but also alternate products. I think the discrepancies between my distributor and myself will be reconciled, but we work on different time lines and I can't afford any delays in any of my projects. The big key is to accomplish this without my customers frowning. Many will not care, but others would have concerns about spare parts and software cost. So component cost and software cost will be important. In fact I will probably include the cost of the software into my project, provide a copy up front, and add some hours in to do a quick primer for the maintenance staff of how to use the software so they can begin familiarizing themselves with the new brand. The main brands that come to my mind are Automation Direct, Mitsubishi, Omron, and Siemens. Automation Direct has the advantage of quick availability to everyone in the US, but lacks local support. Mitsubishi and Omron have the same problem as they have the same distributor. Not a lot of motivation for them to sell either one of them. I'm not sure that the local Siemens distributor even knows that they sell PLCs. So I will be on my own to be knowledgeable enough to support my customers needs. I don't want this turned into an AB bashing session. I have products on The Automation Store that are competing products with my distributor and they seem to have concerns with this. While I hope they find that our competing products are insignificant compared to the business we do together, they have that right to refuse to sell to me. We also have many sales reps of many PLC brands. While we normally ask you to keep you advertising to a minimum, I've opened the door so I welcome you to throw your best sales pitch. Tim

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Ok so I just got a phone call and was told I left out the CoDeSys line. I've played with it a little bit. Any thoughts on it?

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I have worked with Omron, Siemens, Keyence, and Mitsubishi before. Never with Automation Direct. So I will just comment on the ones I know. They all have their advantages and disadvantages. I like Mitsubishi and Omron as they are easily accessible and a name that most customers have actually heard of. The drawback is lack of support. So that leaves a bad feeling with customers. Now they have a new PLC they have to learn, new software, new parts to stock, and no support except the machine builder. I like the keyence if you are doing small jobs with a lot of timers because the timers can be adjusted from the outside without needing any software. That is just generals from me. Of course if the customer is an AB guy, and the techs are AB guys, then I am almost certain they will not like Siemens. It is similar, but also different enough to be a pain. However, they do have great support whether it is local or at the headquarters in Alpharetta, GA. It seems that a lot of schools, around here anyway, are teaching kids using Automation Direct. I have never worked with it, so I cannot tell you how it is.

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See I have to agree with TW on the Siemens support. Our local rep support is non existent. The only time I ever brought a client to them I found them bidding against me for the project shortly after. I dont have a lot of motivation to specify them. Even with that I tried to see if the environment was different when they merged with another company. Never heard back from them. I guess local support is always dependent on the local rep. Our AB guys are great. We never had a shortage in our area. I checked for a couple projects and they had 40 processors of the exact type I needed on the shelf. I personally have never used the Automation Direct. Generally if people are trying to cut costs like that then they want to cut my rate to the point of it not being worth my time. One of our guys has worked with them in the past and has mentioned that he was disappointed with the amount of stuff that died and he had to replace. That is just one person so I dont think you can assume a quality issue due to that. I have the same problem TW does with no local support/shelf. The client or my company would have to stock spares to avoid downtime. Our AB rep is well stocked with common components. I know all that really doesnt help you with an alternative. I did have a client that was in love with the Idec blocks. I have a good friend that loves the GE stuff. Drives me crazy. I really dont know how you get around your clients having to train up on new processors and software - possibly software purchases added to the mix.

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It really depends on your location what kind of support you will get. Our local A-B group is currently competing with panel fabricators and systems integrators using their built-in pricing advantage, while our Siemens supplier is great. The Omron rep won't even acknowledge our requests for information. You get the idea. All of the major brands have their advantages and disadvantages. A lot depends on the type and scope of the project, and on customer demands. I don't know that any one brand is most similar to A-B. They all have a learning curve between brands. How steep depends on what you are trying to control. Have you looked into using an out of town supplier for A-B parts? I know of a local company that ordered from out of the area for years because of a previous dispute with the local A-B rep (over the practice of customer stealing).

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Yes I've thought about it, but it's really against their distributor policies. I don't think that it would be a good stable long term solution.

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I know what you mean TW about the AB and websites. I got a nasty gram from my AB distributor along time ago, was pretty hurt about it. If AB went away today and I was forced to use something else. I would look at the following: 1. GE. I like their hardware, I LOVE their Proficy software to program both HMI and PLC all in one package. I like RussB and his whole GE Support Team. He is the man for GE support. 2. My second choice would be...don't cringe....National Instruments. It seems like we as PLC people want more IT related functions or data collection. We are always hacking this or that trying to get PLC data into a spreadsheet or data collecting some analog data that we need to share to a database. Wanna see proof of hacking around here are five reasons we all have been guilty of hacking...thanks paulengr... http://forums.mrplc.com/index.php?s=&s...ost&p=93703 Why not use a National Instruments controller like a cRIO or a PAC? http://www.ni.com/pac/ National Instruments is a social driven company, engineers that are "fun" to talk too, and have great local support in my area. They even hold "user" group meetings for free. http://www.flickr.com/photos/23529760@N03/...57623807220609/ cough...FIRST Robotics... You don't have to program with Labview, but it does make pretty nice to collect data. And they have an enormous online resource with some pretty snazzy examples of vision, robotics, servo motor examples etc. 3. Beckoff. I am constantly amazed at what Europe is doing to standardize on IEC 61131-3 programming standard which consists of, pick your poison... IL (Instruction List), LD (Ladder Diagram), FBD/CFC (Function Block Diagram), SFC (Sequential Function Chart) and ST (Structured Text). Plus all the openness of the protocols. Yeah they have Sercos, no it's not Allen Bradley Sercos.... 4. CTC Control. Another amazing PLC that integrates PLC, Motion and PC capabilities all into one package. Great group of guys as well and cost effective for most machines. http://www.ctc-control.com/products/idxcontrollers.asp Downside? No more ladder logic, little bit more limited as far as either state logic or sequential function chart programming, which is not really my style but a great little controller to solve a lot of factory level integration problems. Edited by Chris Elston
added a link to paul's post

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I'll weigh in even though my experience with anything other than AB is over 10 years old and tainted by the fact that I was working for a Japanese company with deep pockets and interests in US and Japan. My first alternate choice would be Omron. In fact in 2000 where I worked we had over 900 Omron PLC's of different flavors. Their support was excellent and our local vendor in NY State was outstanding. They had a network of company techs at the time who got together via the net regualarly. Where they've gone since then is the big question. My second alternate choice would be Toshiba. TW you might even notice that the T1 Micros look a lot like the Mlogix. http://www.toshiba.com/ind/product_display...=11&id2=166 Here again in 2000 I had 900 of Toshiba PLC's in various flavors. Their support was not as good as Omron, but our "Japan Connection" made them very popular. My third alternate choice would be GE. These I've used since 2000 and like Chris found them real good once you got past your AB preconceptions.

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I cut my teeth on Parker's Compumotor. The old SX drives the "newer" 6250...yes it's been a while. I don't think I'll revisit this one, I still occasionally belch up some remnants of it

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Naw...that's not the same CTC Control...

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Oh OK, I just always assUmed that it was the same and always wrote it off. Good info! Keep it coming!

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If you have local vendor problems, deal with them head on. What I have found with AB is that they hear a lot of whining from their customers so if you turn up the heat (turn it into actions), they often get the message. CED for instance is positively the worst distributor that AB has that I'm aware of. Find out who the local vendor in the NEXT territory over is. Order some stuff from them. Tell them you are working on a job in their territory, but have the parts delivered to your office/plant instead. This is allowed under AB distributor rules, and there's no way for them to verify. I did this to CED once just for pricing reasons. I suddenly found myself after that flagged as a "large OEM" (whatever that means) and pricing got downright reasonable. Also, try to locate the AB territory sales manager and explain your local support issues in a nonconfrontational way (state the facts). After a few complaints of that nature one of the local vendors I dealt with fired their tech support guy, and in the interim, AB started calling on me direct. Believe me, even for little guys, the AB sales people really do seem to have their act together. If only manufacturing were the same way. If you have problems with AB support, don't even consider GE. Run away, FAST. GE is actually GE/Fanuc, a joint venture. They managed to retain many of the worst aspects of GE though as far as support goes. IF, and that's a big IF, you can get very, very good local support from a distributor, fine. Otherwise, be afraid, very afraid. For example with one issue with their Proficy HMI, it took over 18 months for them to finally get a documented, advertised feature WORKING. The problem with GE is GE Crapital. They have this management philosophy that if you aren't increasing your sales by 10% per year and maintain at least a 25% profit margin, then they send in their efficiency experts to 'help" you. So they move in and get rid of all "nonproductive" staffing such as you guessed it, tech support, product development, engineering, that sort of thing. Then once the business unit gets a crappy reputation with the customers and starts losing more business, they come back and get rid of all those nonproductive product lines (ie, old line products and new products that haven't been given a chance). Then they get rid of "inefficient" manufacturing and outsource it to third world hacks who don't even have a word for "quality" in their native language. Eventually once they've completely gutted the business unit, they dump it. Now, keep in mind this isn't a universal condemnation of all GE products. This is true with their switch gear, MCC's, PLC's, HMI, environmental monitoring, baghouses, water treatment, motors, drives, banking, entertainment (TV), disconnect switches, and software. I still think that they make a pretty fine incandescent light bulb, so it's not a universal problem. There are probably also a couple business units that I've missed. With AB, their primary problem is that recently they hit upon the idea of JIT, for Just In Time manufacturing. It's a great idea and massively benefits the manufacturer. The way it works is that they have their vendors develop specs on price and delivery. Then they run this through their BOM to develop a Gantt chart for manufacturing. Now they wait for an order. At the moment they get one, then the Gantt chart swings into action and they produce a part. Delivery is whatever the Gantt chart says it is. Of course sometimes their vendors (or AB themselves) are completely wrong. So they miss the deadline by a little, perhaps a few months or so. But hey, they have NO INVENTORY. It is the perfect system for the manufacturer. Customers be damned! The problem with JIT by the way is that aside from the customer unappreciation it develops, it also has some fatal flaws. The cost savings that it achieves is in getting rid of inventory. There are some small costs associated with inventory, especially work-in-process, and it definitely has benefits to manage this stuff. But JIT says to get rid of it entirely. Minimizing inventory is a great idea but most of it has a fixed, one time cost. Getting rid of it (JIT) translates into lost sales, which is a hidden cost that you can't quantify. This is the evil nature of JIT. Notice that even though JIT was a Toyota concept, have you ever seen a Toyota car lot with no cars in it? Yeah, even Toyota doesn't actually practice it. For example, about half the dragline fleet around the world has between 7 and 15 DC drives on board. Virtually every one is a Siemens RA70 drive. I only know of one single exception (Avtron oddball). None are AB. Why? Two reasons. First off, AB's excellent documentation. Just pop open the manual for their new Powerflex 755. I'll pick the parameter and you can explain how it works and any exceptions based on other drive settings (hint, I'm going to pick an application parameter). To put it mildly, their documentation is horrible, and this is not only a current product, but a featured brand new one. Second, AB's stated turnaround on DC drives is weeks. Out in the real world (without a Gantt chart), it translates to months. A dragline can move between about 2000 and 8000 tons per hour of dirt or ore. Do you think the dragline owners can afford to sit around waiting for AB's JIT system to work? Now getting back to the technical issues...I've found that the Automation Direct stuff is OK if all you need is a little PLC to do some simply ladder logic stuff. It is atrocious when it comes to analog IO. And it doesn't do networking/distributed control very well either. So as long as your target is effectively the market that Omron excels in, you can definitely consider Automation Direct. But Omron does it so well that I can't consider them a serious competitor. If you need a typical "plant wide" type PLC for heavy distributed control or you need a motion-control type application, don't even consider Automation Direct. With GE, Proficy HMI PE (the real one) is awesome. Very nice to work with if you need a full blown HMI. That's IF (big IF) you know the software inside and out and know how to get around it's quirks. Takes a long time to get there though, and again, tech support is nil. If you find a bug, expect to find a workaround yourself. I strongly suggest you stay about 1 year behind new version releases. The Proficy HMI ME software though is a poor hack. Kind of reminds me of Panelbuilder except that it is even more quirky. The PLC/HMI environment is interesting but flies in the face of separation of concerns. The GE PLC's are really irritating. They basically have all kinds of quirks like you wouldn't believe and documentation is awful. For instance, did you know that certain PLC versions are incompatible with certain power supplies? I mean it all seems to work but will keep going blank with no explanation, nothing in the manual about it. The software is based originally on the Koyo PLC (Series 6 was Koyo rebranded) and still retains a lot of strange quirks from those days. Don't expect the refined RS-Logix or Siemens Step 7 environment. I'm kind of in the process of slowly phasing out GE PLC's for that reason. If I had to use something other than AB and it's a simple machine builder type scenario, I'd consider either a PLC built into an HMI (like the EZ Automation stuff) or go with the standard, Omron. CoDeSys is intriguing but very quirky. If my machine builder scenario centered around an appropriate device or I wanted to do something quirky like using ASI bus, then there are times where it might work out. Otherwise, I'd have to seriously consider Mitsubishi or Siemens. I'd give Beckhoff serious kudos IF (big IF) I was in Europe. If you need to go second string in the U.S., then the only real choice is Siemens.

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Hi Paul, always great to hear your opinion Again, thanks for you opinion. Especially about CoDeSys. Maybe the US isn't ready for it full bore, but I think I will order some devices to try out. I am really growing interested in Siemens

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PLCMentor, I am right down the road from you, I am suprised with the support you got. Not sure if the vendor you dealt with is the same I deal with but my local supprt has been great. In the loacl supprt area I have been lucky in that I get good AB and Siemens support. On the Siemens side my local rep has loaned me several componets so I could test my crack pot ideas. The oen thing I really like about Siemens and this is on the S7-200's mostly because that is what we use the most the guys in Johnson City Ten. are a big help on the phone. An example: One of weight controller suppiers said his product has Profibus abilities. I found and proved with the help of my local rep. He brought in a tool that I could not justify buying and we proved the weight controller was scambling the messages.

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We push whatever the customer wants it would seem, with myself having the fun time of sorting out how the software is organized. Although this is a largely AB area more and more customers seem to be buying alternative products, and I have gotten involved with Toshiba, Mitsubishi, Automation Direct, and Eaton. The support from all of them seems to be about the same, on one hand they want to begin competing and pay lip service to that end, offering some free software versions or tech support, but on the other it is as if they know they can't compete in a region saturated with AB loyal customers so it is a half-hearted effort. I find the software packages on these when compared to AB sometimes cumbersome and lacking features, and tech support often reluctant to spend the time it takes to resolve an issue. They tend to point you in a direction and off with you.

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I heard GE and Fanuc had parted ways? True or not true? Worth a look at Omron - new stuff is really good for example. CP1L is a shoe box as is CP1H - Ethernet option as well and the upgraded CJ1 to CJ2 are awesome - juts waiting for my first one right now - released next month in Ozz. Two things I really love - same function set in all PLCs from shoebox to CS1 and PLC simulator and HMI simulator work together. By the way the function set has 64 bit floating point and APR - linear approximation - gee I love that one - beats the heck out of a pile of complex maths. The new CJ2s also have special high speed input and output cards for motion control.

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OMRON It's cheaper and all the programming software is in 1 package.

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AAHHH! Just about to receive my first Omron CJ2M processors with inbuilt Ethernet and Ethernet IP. Went to a seminar and saw how very easy Ethernet IP is to set up online without turning anything off to share (network) info between PLCs. CONVERTED straight away. They now also have Ethercat for motion etc etc. Have no desire to move antwhere else. Software is great - all in one package - simulator between PLC and screen works faultlessly also. Not very expensive - support for a lot of the older stuff - CS1, CJ1, CJ2, CP1L, etc all share the same instruction set. Instruction set is very extensive also - including 64 bit floating point in a sjoe baox PLC. Floating point is great but 32 bit loses resolution as the numbers get a bit high. 64 bit solves the problem. Great support in Ozz for free also and a 2 year warranty on everything Omron make - hard to beat.

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Hi Jesper You would have to check with your local supplier - I am not sure how much over there. There are a number of processors - some with and some without Ethernet IP. There is no restriction on I/O count, to the limitation of the PLC, at all with any of them - Omron have basically gone back to you pay for memory and features. Lowest has 5k words - biggest is huge. With no Ethernet they are very cheap - with Ethernet IP and big memory you pay a lot more. I will adfd a link to the leaflet (huge) on the PLCs here for you shortly. Here is the link for you http://forums.mrplc.com/index.php?autocom=...mp;showfile=933 Edited by BobB

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Hi Bob I hate to go through "negotiating" a price with a local supplier. Just an approximate price level is OK. Non-ethernet PLCs do not interest me at all. Distributed i/o, via Ethernet/IP or Profinet is a must. I dont know how much Omron uses for memory per instruction, but if it is like typical PLCs, I would like to have approx 256kB memory. edit: I see that the biggest CJ2M has 60k "steps". I think that is the one I might be interested in. Edited by JesperMP

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i agree bout ethernet, I am sick and tired of cable jungle and all "adaptors" (PIC, PCMK, CP5512, SC-09, and hundreds of cables). good support is important, without it, i'd try to stay with someone with global presence. i like Omron for all-in-one software, small projects that can easily be emailed, scalability of products and very reasonable pricing.

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In Ozz the CJ2M-CPU33 (20k words) sells at full trade for $2800 AU - can get 40% off that without a lot of trouble. I am not that fussed with Ethernet as all the new PLCs have USB anyway. Always got a couple of USB cables in the bag anyway for screens, PLCs etc. Just looking at USB cables with USB powered amplifiers in them - they go quite a distance - lets yhou get out of the way but Bluetooth serial ports are better. Ethernet is too expensive for a small job - USB is fine. I still use serial as well - cannot get Bluetooth connections for USB as far as I know. Reason I love Bluetooth is on a multi PLC job with no networking (quite a few do not want networking but stand alone) I can go walk about connected to 6 PLCs (I have 6 Bluetooth serial ports) and no one has a clue what I am doing. Great with a plantroom full of people and I go outside and sit quietly in the car park with no one looking over my shoulder. Could probably do it with Ethernet as well but have not tried. Edited by BobB

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