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Chris Elston

Plc direct questions

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What is the magic with PLC Direct? I see that a few people have voted for that. I have never used one myself. Am I missing out on something? I wouldn't doubt that the PLC hardware itself is cheap. What's the cost of the software? Is it easy to use? Do they charge a yearly fee like AB does? Thanks!

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PLC Direct h/w is cheap (price, not quality).  The software is a one time only thing.  At least it was last year.  It's not quite as user friendly as AB or GE.  I think the s/w was somewhere around $150 last year.  That's a lot better than AB's $5k!  When I worked at a diecast shop that was all GE, we got the GE s/w (DOS based) free from the rep. A lot of PLC Direct's products are discontinued models from another manufacturer.  One that I can think of was the one I used.  It was for a simple indexing table.  When I ordered it, they told me that it was an old Square D design that they had purchased. Hope this helped some, Christopher

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Gentlemen, PLC Direct Nowdays known as Automation Direct is original maker of GE ser 1,  early AB, TI and simatic Plc,s. Made in Korea by Koyo MFG. They ofer compleate line of Automation controls and were the first to ofer PLC programing software in windows environment. Visit automationdirect.com online store and suport. zned

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Koyo was the original maker of early A-B products?   And the first to offer Windows environment ladder editors ? I've already heard that their equipment is perfect and free, and that their tech support people don't sleep or ask for salaries. Next you'll tell me about their goose and it's amazing golden eggs. Sheesh.

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What's wrong Roach, do you really like Ailing-Badly?  A-B's prices are outragous.  The only reason I'd even consider using A-B is if my customer requests it.  And then my customer pays for it, dearly.   It will raise the cost of a machine by $5,000 to $10,000. We use automationdirect's PLC Direct.  The number one reason is quality & functionality.  Second is price.  Third is the excellent, free tech support.   I realize that A-B is a standard.  And when someone says PLC, most people think A-B.  My personal feeling is that for the reasons that we use PLC Direct, many of your hard-core A-B proponents will be taking a second look at the offerings of automationdirect.  :D   So have a look.  automationdirect -raps

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Rap- So how much is the software to program PLC Direct? It is as easy to use a RS Logix? Do they require a yearly fee? I favor PLC's that have easy software to use. Just wondering.

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I find DirectSoft32 (Automation Direct's programming package) extremely user friendly.  Ladder entry is better than anything I've used since Dos TISOFT.  Options for importing mnemonic code automatically generated in Word or Excel are more limited than in other packages, though.  The hardware is excellent, too, and very inexpensive. My only beef with them is the processor instruction set.  It is strongly based on the use of an "accumulator" and a stack of previously loaded values.  So to multiply the value in integer register V1000 by four and store the result in V1001, you have to use three separate boxes:  LD V1000    MUL K4   OUT V1001.  In AB, it's just one box: MUL N7:100 4 N7:101.  So beware when you see the ads touting PLC Direct's 175 instructions to AB's 67, or whatever; it takes 175 boxes in PLC Direct to do the work of 67 AB boxes.  I find that it feels like programming in assembly language.

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My dear rapscallion, This is a PLC-Direct thread.   I said nothing about any other brand. What I was casting aspersions upon were "zned"'s claims that (1) Koyo manufactures now or in the past TI and "early A-B" hardware, and (2) was the first to offer a Windows-based PLC programming environment. It is well known that Koyo manufactures, and AutomationDirect markets, hardware that is known by other names, including GE Series One and certain Siemens controllers.   I am unfamiliar with any TI controller that was built by Koyo, and I know with certainty that they never manufactured any Allen-Bradley hardware. I saw my first installation of WinLogic 5 in 1994, the year PLC Direct was established.   My recollection is that A-B was playing catch-up with Modicon at that time, as Concept was the first Windows-based ladder editor I knew about.  I don't know the launch date of DirectSoft32, but I'll presume it was some time after November of 1996.

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Hello everyone...I'm new to this site and forum, etc. I got my feet wet ,so to speak, with automationdirect plcs working on a  parts chlorinator  controlled by a TI330 . When I came to this company, there was only a handheld to program with. Did some investigation and found Directsoft at Automationdirect. Since then, most new projects (because of the cost, mostly) I  use their products. I am also familiar with Omron c200h's and slc's because of the hodge-podge of machines in our plant. My only complaint , so far , with directsoft is the lack of variety of timers. Rslogix is better in this. Looking forward to learning much at this forum and contributing what little knowledge I have.

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Ken I see where the post about the "first Windows programming" thing came from. Read under the PLC heading. Automation_Direct.pdf

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Koyo made the old TI-305 PLCs, and GE Series One.  I don't know of any A.B. hardware that was made by Koyo. I just got done sending a purchase order to renew our annual software support for RSLogix500 and RSLogix5.  $708 for one year of support, not to mention the original cost of the software.  I guess it is not as bad as the support contract for something like Pro-Engineer but considering how much less expensive Automationdirect is, it seems pretty bad.  As long as there is the large base of A.B. installed equipment, and the large number of specified A.B. PLC systems, I expect things to stay about the same.

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My feelings exactly when I did a small project using the DL105. Some calculations that would have taken about 10 rungs in an Omron CPM1A took about 16 in the DL105. Very annoying.. Since I've come across them more and more lately I hear the same thing all the time. They tend to fail more frequently and have a higher out-of-box failure rate. Not to knock the line.. it seems well thought out but the large percentage of PLC Direct users in my area have had quality problems.

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I have used the DL405 series and the DL205 series on several projects in the past. This is the first I have heard of significant numbers of hardware failures, although I was using these about 3 years back. The last I checked, DirectSoft32 runs about $500 for a single seat. I never looked into support agreements; at $500, if a better version comes out I'll just buy it. The $500 version of DirectSoft32 also lets you program MOST of the Koyo family, unlike the AB business model where you need different development packages WITH THE SAME FRONT END to program two different plc families. In terms of functionality, I like what Koyo brings to the table. 'Stage programming' is a nice combination of sequencing and flexibility. It doesn't come across as refined as an AB SFC. However, it is much more flexible in my opinion. I like the flat, byte-based memory layout. Values in memory are just values in memory. What the data mean is based on the instructions used to manipulate the data. Also, I respectfully disagree with Steve. I like the stack-based instruction entry. I always thought it was pretty wasteful in the classic PLC5's when you needed to move a result of a math instruction to a memory location just to move it back in in the next instruction to perform more math on it. If you had even a moderately long equation two of the four operations in each instruction were wasted. Now, I'm not a big fan of Automation Direct tech support. I have never gotten anything out of them that I didn't find in a manual after about 10 minutes of searching. But at the prices they bring to the table, I'm not looking for tech support. I just want a plc that does the job for a low cost and Koyo fits the bill.

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Koyo made PLCs for GE Series 1 and Texas Instruments 305 line. Koyo also made the 405 line that was marketed under TI and then Simatic 405 family. Those products are still supported under the DL-305 and DL-405 lines. Around 1993, Koyo split with Siemens and went to a direct market approach with PLCDirect. Around 1998, PLCDirect changed names to AutomationDirect, offering more then just PLCs. You can get enclosures, pushbuttons, transformers, etc from the catalog. As far as the software, the $495 package lets you program any of their PLCs. There is no yearly support fee, you call in, you get support, that simple. If there has not been a major version change in the software (like V3.0 to V4.0) there is no upgrade fee to upgrade your software as long as you stay in the same version number. Been in business for almost 9 years and only been 4 revisions of the software, so its not like it changes every year. If there is a major version change, the upgrade fee is only $199. Technical support is available for free, no yearly cost there either, you call in, you get support. Kamenges is correct about the manual, they are written so that users can find the answer that they are looking for. They are written in a way that you don't need to call just to figure out the manual. As for the support you get when you do have to call, there is a reason that we (yes, I work at ADC tech support) were rated #1 by Control Design for Software Support last year, and tied with AB for hardware support, we do everything we can to help users. http://www.controldesign.com/Web_First/CD....ID/JFEY-52ZPRS/ We also take great strides not to have "out of box" failures. If we see a problem with a product, we address the issue immediately to correct it. No one can ever say they have never had a OOB failure, because it happens. We keep close control on our products to make sure it is the most minimal amount possible. And last but not least, Koyo has never made anything for Allen Bradley.

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After 20 years of automation, price is my last concideration. Support and reliability are up front. Let me see you get someome from Automation Direct to come to your shop and give you a hand. My present employer has had one (1) A-B PLC fail, a 1985 PLC 2 mem board went bad after 10,000 or so electrical storms. I have never had a Allen-Bradley or Modicon PLC fail out of the box. I can't say that about A-D, Keyence or Omron. When I worked for a system house, if the customer wanted some cheap system for control. Quote the project high cause they are going to nickel and dime you to death. I like to use the KISS method for design and find the PLC model that fits the design. I have systems around the world and can get support for them with someone that speaks english, they are all Allen-Bradley. It is very hard to give up something that has done so well for so long. :-p

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It's been my experience that the wise integrator chooses the PLC that fits the application. Sometimes that's AB sometimes it's Automation direct. I think you've been real lucky that you've had no more AB breakdowns than just one. I've had many. I don't know that the percentage for me has been any higher for one than the other. It's hardware, it's going to break. You are correct in the fact that if field support is a critical need, then you're going to have to go with AB. But again, many (most?) applications don't merit the need for field support or the cost. If you have found a niche market to where you don't have to be competitive on your bids for projects, then bravo. But for the rest of us....we need flexibility.

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Automation Direct makes affordable solutions. If you have a application that just needs simple relay logic then this is a great economical choice but, if I had to do MMI or calculations then buy the higher priced controls. Remember that you are also paying for the support, progress and legacy of these items.

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I like Direct Logic PLC's! I teach PLC programming and see students learn many different types of PLC's. I can tell you that most of them pick up on a Direct Logic PLC's much faster and easier. They say the manuals are easier to understand, Software is easier the setup and use. I have to say this: AB's manuals suck. No wonder people have to call for tech help. I know this because I usually have to spoon feed students the info about AB. I just setup a bunch of HMI touch panels from Automation Direct to interface with different types of PLC's ( AB's included ) . I saved a bunch of money. The software is neat and cheap. I wasn't very high on Automation Direct until I started using there stuff. Now I would recomend them for any automation project. If your worried about failure just order 2 of everything. Then tell your customer they get free spare parts just in case they need them. AND YOU'LL STILL SAVE LOTS OF MONEY!
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If someone is seeking handholding, they should get Allen Bradley because they have it priced into their structure whereas many others do not. I buy and use around 4 Direct Logic systems a month and have never had a failure from any of them with the exception of a stuck contact on a relay out card. I wouldn't use Allen Bradley anymore if they were a third of the cost of a Direct Logic. At this, they're price would still be disproportionately high in comparision and quality. I say this having used several dozen "Sick 500s" and always having to buy more crap to do what it appeared to be capable of doing out of the box. So when I hear someone saying they have never had a SLC500 fail "out of the box", I wonder to myself, ... How do you tell??

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Any beginners having difficulty getting started with Allen Bradley Slc500 ?. I've written a short booklet "Getting started with AB Slc 500 and RsLogix". If you want a copy just ask.

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mick! you have a book? Can mrplc post for a download? If you are interested e-mail me at info@mrplc.com Hope to hear from you soon.

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To Ken: Koyo made the GE Series One, and GE Series Three, and the TI/Seimens 305 & 405. Koyo never purchased and relabeled controllers from GE, TI or Seimens, or SD or CH etc.. They actually made them and sold them to these other companies. Koyo is the parent company of AutomationDirect.com I have a box in my desk drawer that is a Windows Based DirectSoft Rel 1.1 dated 1994.

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What I don't like about AD is that they use octal, hex, BCD and decimal in specific places. I should be able to use any format I want anywhere. This is ADs major failing. Other than that I find the performance per dollar to be very high and documented will enough the I have never had to call tech support. There are no key disks with evmove that get wiped out when the hard disk crashes etc. I have found that the AD is very good for testing the Modbus protocol. It is better that the Modicon PLCs. I like the EZ-tough terminals because they are inexpensive and support many protocols which again is why we like them. We can use the EZ-touch terminals to test our products with the many protocols that they support. We don't really use PLCs for automation. We use them only for compatibily testing as we want our product to get an 'A' is the 'plays well with others' category.

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I was a hardcore AB person from 1989 through 1999. I worked in a lot of different industries that all used AB so it was natural. I was offered a position that would allow me to design total turnkey systems from the ground up. The catch was that they wanted me to look at using Automation Direct PLC's. I was very leery of that but went ahead. The first thing that blew me away was the cost of everything. Everything was 1/2 to 1/3 the cost of AB including software. My first thought was that it was crap. Once again I went ahead. My first system was based on there top of the line DL405 Series PLC. The D4-450, I used the usual digital ins and outs but also used 2 of there High speed counter cards, the D4-HSC, which was tracking some encoders that were controlling positioning and velocity controls. My AC drives had the ability to communicate via modbus, which I connected to the PLC and let the PLC Supervise and control the AC drives. Everything works great. It all fell into place so well. Yea I missed a lot of the ease of some of the ABs functions like off delay timers and especially the math functions, which are a bit of a pain with Automation Direct, especially when doing floating point math. About failure rates. I have in the last 5 years built 12 full control system using every type of there PLC's except the 305 Series and the DL105. I have had 0 out of the box failures or problems. I have had 0 operational failures. One of my first systems, which runs our exhaust control system that keeps our plant within EPA regulations, has been running now for 37560 hours or 4.28 years continuously except for power outages. This system has crashed 1 time. I say crashed, we were struck by lightning and the processor was kicked out of run and was flashing a cpu error. I fixed it by turning off the control power to the PLC turning it back on and turning the mode switch from program to run and back to life it came. It didn’t lose its program or any of the data stored in its retentive memory. We did however lose 2 AC drives. 1 motor and 1 un-isolated thermocouple transmitter. My favorite PLC was the DL05. Where else could you get a $99 PLC and add a $80 analog card and be able to make a system that has a built in high speed counter and PID functions for $179 bucks? My new favorite PLC is the DL06. It has all the above plus you can add 3 more of there ever expanding selection of option cards and get a $60 LCD Module that lets you basically have a inexpensive HMI built right into the PLC and all of this will set you back a grand total of $258 with the LCD. Oh it also can send and receive ASCII. Now for my favorite soapbox speech. Lets talk software! I bought their Directsoft 32 Version 2 back in 1999 for $495. They upgraded me to Version 3 for free. I was able to keep my Version 3 software updated for the next 3 years by downloading the updates right from their WEB site for FREE! No I didn’t have a yearly service contract like AB, there not needed for Automation Direct software. When Version 4 came out I dumped a massive $199 for the update. I have updated version 4 several times for FREE as before. I have updated my touch screen, display panels and even my Lookout Direct software for Free, $0, Zero, nada extra. I have updated the firmware for almost every one of the PLC’s, Touch screens and panels I’ve used for free, once again right from there WEB site and once again no renewable service contract needed. I can’t even begin, nor do I even care, to think how much money was spent between 1989 and 1999 in service contracts for updating software, firmware and the like from AB. Not to mention the initial painful expense of buying the software and hardware to begin with. And now with Automation Direct’s continued effort to expand their product lines. I am saving my company and my customers huge amounts of money on everything from Terminal blocks to AC Drives, Circuit breakers, Switch’s, Indicators, Touch screens, Sensors and even Enclosures. Automation Direct once again makes the world a brighter safer place for budget minded company's that still want a quality product that it can afford to use. Bravo!!! Len Averyt Electrical and Automation Engineering TexLoc, Ltd. Mfg of Precision Fluoroplastic Tubing & Heat Shrink PTFE, FEP, PFA, MFA, ETFE, ECTFE, THV, PEEK & PEI ULTEM 4700 Lone Star Blvd. Fort Worth, Texas 76106 U.S.A. Telephone: 817-625-5081 Fax: 817-624-9095 www.texloc.com Or Techknowman@techknowman.com www.Techknowman.com

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I purchase a few of there HMI every month. I will purchase a PLC when I have time to play with it. The reasons I do purchase from them are: -Price is OK. -Product looks nice and works OK. -Very easy to make purchase and follow shipment on-line But the most important... CUSTOMER SERVICE. I have phone them 3 times and was treated with respect and courtesy, and I really felt that the poeple at the other end wanted to help me. They did there best. I almost never feel that way when I call other brand's service dept.

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