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HiGhVoLtAgEgUrU

Wiring Schematics

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Hey guys, when you build a panel. Do you guys supply the customer with the wiring schematics also, in other words. Lets say company X want to build a panel. When your finish build it and ready to send it the customer what goes along with panel. ( wiring diagram, blue prints, Plc program copy if it has plc).

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All the above. Why wouldn't you?

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What is Ditto? okey i figured it out. so precisly tell me, before you guys start building the panel, there is gotta be some brain storming, then you sketch it out on piece of paper such as panel layout, like where all the comoponet would go. So wiring schematics are done before or after the panel is done or it doesnt matter. Edited by HiGhVoLtAgEgUrU

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So wiring schematics are done before or after the panel is done or it doesnt matter. 1. Create Schematics 2. Build panel 3. Update prints for redlines. [ Redlines are errors or modification during the build ] 4. Ship panel with correct prints. 5. Send bill. Hope this helps

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Ditto, although the customer will usually come in and do a"FAT" ( factory acceptance test) before shipping. That way modification can be made before it leaves the panel shop.

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our customers get full documentation (detailed drawings, parameters, all source code etc.). this keeps them very happy. so far we are aware of only one case where customer decided to use this to build more units (handed to another company in attempt to save few dollars). we found about it when red-faced customer sent the replicas to us for "repair" since they caused so much downtime. company that made them knew how to duplicate dimensions, wiring etc. but not how to set them up properly. on fist look those machines looked just like originals but when we started looking closer, there were also many little things that we would never do and this was part of premature wear and maintenance trouble. you get what you pay...

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There is nothing wrong with doing a basic panel layout sketch on paper... secondly there is absolutely nothing wrong with just laying the components out on the mounting plate to work out how you will lay the board out either.... Not every one has an unlimted budget to work to.. even if it is 2009... horses for courses.... Getting the schematics right "As built" is most important.

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Reason I was asking because at the plant I work, we dont really work of the schematics. I just go ahead and build them and sometime the schematics never get done for that panel. I know it's not a good practice, but no one really ask because we do it in-house. So I got pretty good build panels. how big is this panel building business. Can one survive on it, let's say if I go on my own. would it require providing other electrical services too stay busy? I do have contractor license.

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Firstly... let me say a lot of people have drivers liceneces as well... that doen;t mean they are all excellent drivers as well....does it..... You say... So I got pretty good build panels.... that says to me that you got efficient and quick at what you do.... However.. that does no imply automatically that your work is of a high standard... or that you are wiring to code rules... The excuse of sometimes the schematics never get done is inexcusable..... There is a big difference between some who thinks they can build panels and those that can. To be honest though, there will always be a market for those i term as Cowboys, who think they can and will be initally cheap for a customer.. but ultimately they arn;t and more often then not end up been more expensive... but hey... some of these guys have relationships with companies for years and only once the old buddy ties are severed then they are soon found out... just the way the world works my friend.. I am not implying that you would be a cowboy (or mabey i am).. but i would strongly suggest that you look in the phone book for switch board builders and pay a visit and have a look at really is involved... alternatively.. look for a higher skilled job at another place that will give you the background and training then you can make an informed decision...

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Contol panel design and building is a big part of my business. Drawings MUST be done before building the panel and usually approved by the client/electrical consultant. I cannot see in any way that a control system, for example, for a power station could ever be built or maintained without drawings. Then there is the issue of commented PLC code, communications details between PLCs etc etc. Drawings are absolutely essential or the job can never be planned or maintained properly. What if you left the company and some poor individual got a job there - he/she would have nop idea of what is going on. Even worse if you went to another job and there were no drawings, machine is broken down, 20 guys standing around, production has stopped and you have absolutely no idea what you are looking for. I fail to understand how you company could allow this to happen. Terrible QA obviously - would not want to buy anything from your company if QA is that bad! Edited by BobB

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Interesting Topic this. We as a company in the UK go down the route of Design, Manufacture, test, despatch, install, commission then sign off! Design, we'll either use a proven system and tweek to an exact application or we'll draw out the basics on paper, meaning changes can be made, hand over to another Design engineer who will check it, this is done a few times before it'll head down stairs to the workshop, which as the Americans put it get "Redlined", all the drawings are marked up to suit the redlines. this is there brought to the designers attention after test (sometimes during) for them to correct and update the drawings then the set goes with the panel. Depending of the customer depends on the level of information they require, sometimes a set of drawings is enough, other times CoE's need to be issued, other times the PLC and HMI software will be issued if the customer wants to make changes, but i always stress that they should send a copy back to us so we're up to date as well.

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Hi It really helps doing electrical schematics and panel layouts in auto CAD software. When you use CAD you can make updates on the spot easy of use and it's easier to work with. Laying out your components it's a breeze especially if you deal with hoffman enclousures and small components you can download CAD blocks, same thing if you deal with A-B components if you know what you doing guys in assembly and wiring will love you. As they say everything looks good on paper, but when it comes to put all the parts on back panel that's a different story. So good drawings are essential. To include all documentation in finished product it really depends on customer. Most of the time I include all literature from components, as build drawings and that is it but this is only done when you build panel for customer who did whole design. If our company does design than full documentation is supplied drawings, PLC code, customer paid for it right. Edited by marcinski

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if someone does build panels withough drawings - how do you get them approved?

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If you are worried about customers taking your drawings and giving them to someone else to build it after you have done all the legwork, either stamp it PROPRIETARY or have them sign an agreement that the prints are for troubleshooting purposes only all rights belong to you the designer blah blah blah and if they are caught using someone else to build they are liable for said fees blah blah blah legal talk ect.

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It's fairly standard practice to provide a copy of the electrical schematics when you ship equipment. USUALLY a copy of the PLC Program is provided as well. I say "usually" because if the equipment has any kind of gas piped to it (such as a boiler or a water heater), it will most likely not come with the program. The reason for this is fairly obvious: the company doesn't want to be legally liable when a customer's maintenance technician who may or may not know what he's doing changes the program and burns down the facility as a result. At my last place of employment, the programs for our water heater were stored on password-protected EEPROMs (They were on those old SLC-500 brick units), and we actually had to sign a legal waiver to get copies of it along with the password to access it. Even then, we left the program alone and just got online to troubleshoot. At any rate, always provide electrical schematics. Why? Imagine you knew nothing about the piece of equipment you drew those prints for. Now imagine your job was to maintain that piece of equipment. Now imagine opening that panel, knowing absolutely nothing about it, and trying to figure out not only how it works but why it isn't working just by looking at it. It's not impossible to do this, but it takes a LOT Of time, and when your down machine is causing 200+ people to get paid for standing around doing nothing, you don't have that kind of time. You don't have to provide documentation on every single part. If you want to be one of those comically d-baggy companies who lists all the parts with own stock numbers (despite the real manufacturer and model number clearly printed on the parts themselves) so you can rape your customer on the huge markup, by all means do so, but provide the schematics. Always. If you're worried about intellectual property, most drawings have (and if they don't, they SHOULD have) a legal confidentiality notice on them. If a customer gives the prints to your competitor, sue them. Edited by The Turkey Slayer

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Going on your own is possible. There are places, depending on where in the country you are, that ONLY build panels and program PLCs. But there are a number of challenges you'll face if you decide to start out doing it. For one, there's the legal issue. Remember, you'd be selling a potentially hazardous product that could possibly start a fire or even cause a machine to kill someone if not built correctly. Depending on where you live, you could be in for a huge mess of legal hoops to jump through before you'll even be allowed to sell your first panel. Then there's insurance. There's also the fact that you'll pay more for components than your bigger, more established competition. You know why so many OEMs use Hoffman panels even though they're super expensive if you were to buy one? Because they buy so many they get a massive discount on them you don't get. They can literally turn around and sell them to you for the same amount the supplier would charge and make a profit, so you can imagine how easily they could undercut your prices when bidding on a job. Finally, there's a question you want to ask yourself: Do I want to build panels, or do I want to be a businessman? If you really love building panels and loathe the idea of spending all your time thinking about accounts, union contracts, price negotiations, job bidding, etc. then you'll probably be disappointed if you go that route.

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We supply all drawings, cut sheets, sequence of operations, VFD or Soft Start parameter changes, and code Pdf'd. Same sequence as a lot of others listed up here. The main reason for a lot of the documentation is that it is really cheap for us to design, assemble, and test the controls here at our facility. It is not cost effective to send someone into the field to rework things later. We want our customers to have as many tools in their hands to rectify the problems as possible, so that we do not have to pay travel expenses etc. We are also a UL listed shop with standard controls and explosion proof ratings. That means our company takes responsibility for designing a system of control that is compliant with all codes related to building a safe system to be placed in most areas, including those hazardous explosive environments. There are many customers who do not want to take on the liability of building controls for those areas. There is a good reason for that fear, lives and money are at risk (unfortunately depending on the company, $$$ may be first on that list). Turkey Slayer also points out the cost issue of buying your own components on a one-off basis can be expensive. For example, we have many vendors, and are listed as a distributor for many of them. With that in mind, when you see a list price and have to pay it, I pay at most 50% of that list price, sometimes as low as 10%. I can mark it up, make money, and save you money, and still offer you a UL, CE, CSA, or other Listed enclosure or assembly that would take any liability off your company as well as provide the type of reduced hidden costs pertaining to down time because you have no documentation. ***No Instrumenation without Documentation!!!***

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