Software copyright

[Mike Dyble 0]

This is a scenario which I can see cropping up where I work. What do you all think? Company A made PLC hardware and supplied software to access it and maintain it They no longer support the hardware, and wont supply the software, not at any price even although they used to sell it. We require that software in order to maintain and modify their equipment, which controls part of our plant. The alternative would be to replace all the hardware, which in the current economic climate is not possible. And to be fair, the hardware although old, is trouble free, and of a vintage where a local repair company can do board level repairs, as it's not surface mount. This issue has become 'current' because we need to make some minor mods to the program. We therefore have no alternative but to use pirated software. We dont want to, but we are left with no choice. If Company A then got 'legal' with us where would we stand? I know they were hoping to force us to upgrade, and 18months ago it might have happened, but now, no way, I actually think the plant would close first.

[Ken Moore 23]

Another Way. Pay someone who has a legal copy of the software to make your changes.

[Mike Dyble 0]

It's a possibility, ideally we will need a more long term solution, we have tried to buy a secondhand copy without success so far. The problem is the relationship with 'Company A' has broken down. Our managment have accused them of holding us to ransom, which is probably true, and 'Company A' have said that they cannot and will not support old equipment for ever which is not unreasonable. The problem is that it has escalated up the management on both sides and positions have been taken and trenches dug!

[Mark- 17]

Hello, >We therefore have no alternative but to use pirated software. We don’t want to, but we are left with no choice. Sure you have choices. >If Company A then got 'legal' with us where would we stand? I am not an attorney. You are violating the copyright. The copyright holder could sue for damages. If they were successful then punitive damages would be possible. And in that area the sky is the limit. You state you have no choice. Of course the easiest choice is to not use the software. It is not the other companies fault that your company did not purchase a legal license to the software. >Our management have accused them of holding us to ransom, which is probably true If is not true. They OWN the software. To ransom is to TAKE another’s property and then demand something for its return. You company is using that statement as a justifier to steal the software. Not to be too blunt, your management is at fault. For whatever reason, they failed. Now they are blaming others for their failure. Not very honest. The other company not attempting to find a solution to keep a customer happy is not good karma. Name the company and maybe someone here will have a solution for you. Please do not take the other companies property. In the long run it will hurt your company more. My2c. Mark

[paulengr 44]

If you try to buy a top-of-the-line Siemens S7 or Allen Bradley ControlLogix or GE PACS, no, you can't afford it without a lot of project justification behind it. But you can buy slimmed down versions of the same PLC's including power supplies, etc., for 2000 pounds or less, and you can usually buy good quality "brick" PLC's for under 1000 pounds including software. If your company can't afford that, then you are probably paying COD for maintenance parts and it's only a matter of time before they close the doors.

[Veganic 8]

How about a 'can anyone program a XXXXXX' request? We just want to know who Company A is! Edited 13 Jan 2009 by Veganic

[Mike Dyble 0]

I actually like the extra layer idea that Paulengr suggests I think that could be made to work, and would avoid all the problems, and give our management a face saving exit. And I think it could be made to work with a minimum plant interruption. Unfortunatley when all this was first discussed internally our management got hold of it and OK they didnt so much get the wrong idea as over react. I was at a couple of meetings where I distinctly got the feeling that we were being held to ransom by Company A, but once it got up the management chain the reaction was swift and complete, to the point where Company A will never be on the site again. Pragmatism isnt one of the qualities that one influential person posesses. They went ballistic. The nearest polite analogy I can give to the 'briefing' I was given is 'Never give in to blackmailers, they always come back for more' The actual terms used were much more colorfull and for example involved Company A's management taking part in activities that I wouldn't describe here and I always thought were physically impossible! The reaction was probably justified, but perhaps not the best one in the circumstances. I am not going to name names at this stage, I may do once the dust has settled. And to answer the cost questions, it is not only the cost of new hardware that kills the upgrade, it is the down time, there was a big shut down last year, the next big one isnt for 5 years, and this project needs sorting now. I reckon we would be looking at a minimum 2 week shutdown to changeover, and that assumes no gotchas, which are always a possibility on a job like this. OK the work should have been done in the last shutdown, that is why discussions started, and if Company A had been more customer focused that is what would have happened. But the opportunity was lost and it's now the engineers responsibility to sort the (other peoples) mess out Edited 14 Jan 2009 by Mike Dyble

[paulengr 44]

OK...this makes more sense. I'm used to continuous process plants. I think the worst case is float glass furnaces (10-15 years between shutdowns). Why don't you throw out more details on where you get stuck at as to techniques to intercept an existing, running system and change things out while it continues running? There always seem to be ways to do this in practice especially if everyone is used to living with such things.

[TimWilborne 108]

Would it be possible to mirror the current system with it's replacement for a while, comparing the new system with the existing functioning system for debugging? It might be more costly component wise but would allow for shorter shutdowns. I don't know how much the cost/hour of downtime of your system, but I have been involved in systems such as this where the plant literally wanted to close a system down for the 3rd shift and have it back up and running in the morning.Very costly because you must work around an operating system and you can't reuse components, but it does allow for minimum downtime

[Mike Dyble 0]

I spoke to my boss yesterday about the 'extra layer' and we reckon it can be made to work. It can also be the start of a 'drip feed' of the upgrade. In terms of hardware, now 'Company A' are in the sin bin we can use our own prefered option of Rockwell/AB. This choice is based on the following: Good support in the UK. Providing you are prepared to pay they will always try and accomodate you. Also they support old hardware as long as they can. Dont know if this is the experience in the US but in the UK they seem to have the best 'attitude' of the major players. Maintenance people understand AB hardware, we have micrologix, slc, and are getting our first controllogix on another project. I am comfortable using AB! I know my around it and providing we stick to systems that allow online changes (essential with what we are planning) commissioning new bits will be as easy as any commissioning job ever is. I think when you trying to be clever with the way you do a replacement its important to stay in your personal comfort zone with respect to the hardware/software. OK so the end result may not be as elegant as a 'rip it out and start over solution' but it can be done. We have short planned (1-2 day) shutdowns a couple of times a year, and occasional shutdowns due to other things, if we can use all this time well then we can chip away at the problems, starting on the section which requires mods. Because of the nature of the beast all the work is going to have to be done in house, but the upside of that is that the techs involved get a good understanding of the new system as it develops. It's not a done deal yet but it I think people will go for it, Senior management know that Company A have lost out permanently due to their attitude, and Production get the functionality they need

[TimWilborne 108]

Your reasoning is well thought out and highlight why this will actually save you money in the long run. This is exactly what you need to tell management when you are justifying the cost

[Veganic 8]

That's the only bit I'd disagree with but what's it got to do with me?

[Mike Dyble 0]

May be nothing, but I would be interested to hear your views. I have experence with Siemens, AB, and some of the smaller players. Best: Rockwell, PLC Direct, Red Lion (HMI's) Rest (Which covers everything from OK to s**t!). Siemens, Eurotherm (Not PLC's but instruments) Telemechanique, Mitsubishi. .. This isn't overall value for money, or hardware, it's purely my 'service' rating, how good are they when ring them with a problem, how far will they go to help (providing you can pay for the service)

[Veganic 8]

I've just deleted a 200 word rant about my history with AB! But it's all the usual stuff. I just find their approach very annoying so I'm probalby not the best person to ask for an impartial view. I'm going to start a conspiracy theory that they have those lie-detectors connected to there support phone lines - in fact I've almost convinced myself already.

[paulengr 44]

Don't know why you don't like them. The following video shows one of the upcoming products they have in the works and clearly demonstrates how their marketing folks work.