:OT: What kind of President would an Engineer make?

[OkiePC 14]

Yeah, why do we continue to believe our economy can grow forever without falsehoods and recessions? We are self-hypnotized by our bloated systems and habits to the point we are nationally blind to too many stark realities. We aren't even happy with a growing economy but are somehow dependent on an increasing rate of economic growth! Why can't we have a global economy of a healthy size and growth rate? Why rush our species futures headlong into maximum consumption and population?What's wrong with the finding a balance with our Earth and our global neighbors now and then molding our economy to fit that ideal?Yes, we need a council of engineers in charge of our representative republic. We need to shed our illusions of true democracy while defending our Constitution.We need a congress full of jacks of all trades with impeccable values and a farsighted, constructive attitude...and an Engineer for President! Edited 19 Oct 2008 by OkiePC

[BobLfoot 301]

Mr Father (may he rest in peace) spoke of a time when this country had STATESMAN not POLITICIANS in the government. Until WE THE PEOPLE, demand a "more perfect union" once again nothing will change. An change costs money from everyone's pocket.

[Peter Nachtwey 15]

A little formatting would be be nice there OkiePC. That really got you and a couple other people going, good. I had planned this since the last debates. It wasn't a spur of the moment thing. There was someone that complained about my post. I too was writing a response and found I couldn't post it. To the person that complained about wanting to learn instead of hearing my political views I had written that he should read my other 3000+ posts and when he was done come back and complain. The fact that cars can be converted to use alcohol cheaply has nothing to do with the subsidies for corn alcohol. You pointed out there are other sources for alcohol that may be cheaper cheaper/better forms of alcohol like sugar or switch grass. The only thing the corn alcohol subsidies are doing is padding the farms wallet at the expense of the rest of us that pay the subsidies with our taxes and really hurt the poor by raising the cost of food. I just object to the subsidies, not the form of energy. I noticed you did like my use of the term idiots but then you used the term idiocracy. I must admit that the term idiot is extreme but I wanted to express my extreme contempt. I won't back off from the term smash. War is not to be done in a half a$$ed manner, but first the congress must declare war as it is written in the constitution. Here is another tidbit that was e-mailed to me lately. Below is a easy to understand version of how our tax system works, and how people can spin it. BAR ROOM ECONOMICS – HOW THE TAX SYSTEM WORKS Suppose that every day, ten people go out for beer and the bill for all ten comes to $100. If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this: The first four (the poorest) would pay nothing. The fifth would pay $1. The sixth would pay $3. The seventh would pay $7. The eighth would pay $12. The ninth would pay $18. The tenth (the richest) would pay $59. So, that's what they decided to do. The ten drank in the bar every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement, until one day, the owner threw them a curve. "Since you are all such good customers," he said, "I'm going to reduce the cost of your daily beer by $20." Drinks for the ten now cost just $80. The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes so the first four were unaffected. They would still drink for free. But what about the other six - the paying customers? How could they divide the $20 windfall so that everyone would get their "fair share"? They realised that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they subtracted that from everyone's share, then the fifth and the sixth would each end up being paid to drink their beer. So, the bar owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each drinker's bill by roughly the same amount, and he proceeded to work out the amounts each should pay. And so: The fifth person, like the first four, now paid nothing (100% savings). The sixth now paid $2 instead of $3 (33%savings). The seventh now pay $5 instead of $7 (28%savings). The eighth now paid $9 instead of $12 (25% savings). The ninth now paid $14 instead of $18 (22% savings). The tenth now paid $49 instead of $59 (16% savings). Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to drink for free. But once outside the restaurant, the drinkers began to compare their savings. "I only got a dollar out of the $20," declared the sixth. She pointed to the tenth man, "but he got $10!" "Yes, that's right," exclaimed the fifth. "I only saved a dollar too. It's unfair that he got ten times more than I did" "That's true!!" shouted the seventh. "Why should he get $10 back when I got only two? The wealthy get all the breaks" "Wait a minute," yelled the first four in unison. "We didn't get anything at all. The system exploits the poor" The nine drinkers surrounded the tenth and beat him up. The next night the tenth man didn't show up for drinks, so the nine sat down and had beers without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something important. They didn't have enough money between all of them for even half of the bill. And that, ladies and gentlemen, journalists and college professors, is how our tax system works. The people who pay the highest taxes get the most benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up anymore. In fact, they might start drinking overseas where the atmosphere is somewhat friendlier. For those who understand, no explanation is needed. For those who do not understand, no explanation is possible!

[TimWilborne 108]

Here is my response, massaged a little bit for content rules

[jstolaruk 9]

The BAR ROOM ECONOMICS is an excellent analogy of the state tax system and the competition between states - good post. Edited 19 Oct 2008 by jstolaruk

[OkiePC 14]

Yes, as a private citizen you can threaten to "turn their desert into a sea of glass". I am not trying to censor your 1st amendment, just imagining a real candidate's words. . .When you become a public figure, "smash" might be too strong to get you elected. I like the beer tab analogy. It is accurate. The tax code is one of many pieces of legislation that ha been flying over our heads for decades unstopped. I watched Chuck Norris on CNN discussing the flabbergasting quantity of the tax code and some of its bizarre details...simpy amazing... The first bill you pass should be one paragraph: "All new legislation must result in the simplification or elimination of existing legislation. Its intent shall be stated in the heading and that intent must the sole focus of the entire contents of the bill." We need strategies as much as we need ideas. We need a strategy to drive our current systems toward a leaner, simpler, fairer end result. Paul Edited 19 Oct 2008 by OkiePC

[TimWilborne 108]

Oh come on Paul, that's already been done. It was called the Paperwork Reduction Act

[OkiePC 14]

That piece of work is a law applied to us, not to the way congress works.... It created offices and jobs but no where does it state that existing code and laws be shrunk... Edited 19 Oct 2008 by OkiePC

[TimWilborne 108]

I was actually insinuating that any effort by the government so simplify usually results in over complication instead

[Peter Nachtwey 15]

An engineer can add, subtract, mulitiply and divide unlike a politician. Politicians like really big numbers. The bigger the better. The USSA has 300,000,000 people. Many live in apartments and many in houses. Lets asssume there are 50,000,000 houses. Lets assume 7 percent ( this is very high but conservative estimate ) of the houses are be behind on their pay payments. That would be 3500000 homes. Now the gov thinks it needs $ 700,000,000,000 for the 3500000 homes. That is $200000 per home! That is too much. What kind of scan are the politicians trying to pull?

[OkiePC 14]

Scams like this one...

[Peter Nachtwey 15]

I sent a message to Mike Wallace at Fox News to ask about this. Hopefully his staff is smart enough to understand the math and see the scam.

[Nathan 7]

+1 - that was great!

[BobLfoot 301]

Hey Peter - Run you numbers on the population of Louisianna and how much the FED spent on Katrina and you'll see the same pattern. HUH I wonder why?

[OkiePC 14]

Your fear was planted by the media via oil money. There are millions of acres of unplanted croplands...I personally know people being paid by our government NOT to grow anything! There is not going to be a corn shortage, just lots of speculators who watch too much tv. Most of our corn is made into soft drinks that directly cause diabetes and other pancreatic disease. Switch to Diet Dr. Pepper, or Rock Star in the white can and keep your caffeine...pour corn syrup in your mash, and light the bunsen burner under your still. Ethanol can be made from almost anything, and can solve the energy crisis in a matter of a few years ... I am going to do my part... Just a year ago that same device could be had for under $200 so I must not be the only one driving up the demand... My isolated acre is perfect for a home still too. Oh, and I got your sarcasm about the paperwork standardization act...I just forgot to include emoticons or other mood indication in my earlier response... Don't let the mass media and human nature (to follow the crowd) deceive you. Ethanol is a perfect solution for all gasoline powered cars built since the Model-A. Drill out your carb jets or just fill-er up if you have a newer car, and it won't eat holes in your fuel system...not for years...the only real risk is a mechanical pump made before 1995, but those are like $50 for good old american makes, and all fuel system components today are made with ethanol resistant seals. They have to be because you are already running 5-20% ethanol! And at those levels, each time your ECM has to adjust to a different blend, it hurts your economy. Yes, I will pay $1.00 to $1.75 for home ethanol at first, and my mpg will drop to about 80%, so I will be driving for gas equivalent cost of $2.18/gallon. So what that I can buy unleaded for $2.14 (at seven eleven in OKC today!) without the hassles. Gas prices will go back up depending on factors beyond my control. Once I am done, not one penny of my gas dollars will leave the USA, though. Minding my own business like Peter said... [/rant] Edited 21 Oct 2008 by OkiePC

[TimWilborne 108]

And what you are doing is very noble as an individual. But I don't see ethanol coming close to solving our fuel problems alone. I'm not even sure if it can remain profitable without the governments help year after year. I think it can be part of the energy solution, but not a huge part. As for me and my 2 acres, I've got a better plan for it. I could probably cap some methane off of it, but until the government tells me I have to I let it go into the air. I could take my neighbors excess crops and make ethanol I guess, but on a good cool night it just seems better to sip on a little hooch and watch the traffic go by

[BobLfoot 301]

How about a little extra math - 640 acres per square mile means 420,000,000 acres == 656,250 square miles or approximately 3 times the size of Texas. With 3000 miles from NY to LA that's a swath just under 219 miles wide. 243,600,000 acres == 380,625 square miles or approximately 1.5 tiems the size of Texas With 3000 miles from Ny to LA that's a swath just under 127 miles wide. Just to repalce oil, not feed anyone.

[TimWilborne 108]

Wow, that's better than one of Peter's charts. Great job at making it something we can visualize. Another thing that hasn't been taken into account in our equation is crop rotations. You can't plant corn year after year. Corn is planted for two years with a 20% decline in the second year then you must plant something else to replenish the soil such as soybeans. Optimizing rotation you would actually have to set aside 535,920,000 acres to replace current oil imports. Also, you must find a market for the 267,960,000 acres of soybeans your producing or the government will have to pay for them to be destroyed through subsidies. Of course soybeans can be used for biodiesel...can't find a yield per acre EDIT - Found a site that says you can produce 60 gallons of biodiesel per acre from soybeans.

[BobLfoot 301]

If you liked that you'll love this. From the doe.gov energy consumption / production site http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/dnav/pet/pet_cons_wpsup_k_w.htm with a little rounding. I used 350 gallons of ethanol per acre figure from TW I used 60 gallons of biodiesel per acre figure from TW Finished Motor Gasoline 9,000,000 barrels per day = 3,285,000,000 barrels for a year = 137,970,000,000 gallons 394,200,000 acres of ethanol producing corn Kerosene Jet Fuel 1,600,000 barrels per day = 584,000,000 barrels for a year = 24,528,000,000 gallons 70,080,000 acres of ethanol producing corn Distallate Fuel Oil 4,000,000 barrels per day = 1,460,000,000 barrels for a year = 61,320,000,000 gallons 1,022,000,000 acres of biodiesel producing soybeans Residual Fuel Oil 500,000 barrels per day = 182,500,000 barrels for a year = 7,665,000,000 gallons 127,750,000 acres of biodiesel producing soybeans Propane/Propylene 1,000,000 barrels per day = 365,000,000 barrels for a year = 15,330,000,000 gallons 43,800,000 acres of ethanol producing corn -- Note this assumes ethanol can sub for this Other Oils 3,000,000 barrels per day = 1,095,000,000 barrels for a year = 45,990,000,000 gallons 766,500,000 acres of biodiesel producing soybeans LETS ADD THIS UP AND FIGURE THE ACREAGE Corn Producing Area 394,200,000 + 70,080,000 + 43,800,000 = 508,080,000 acres 739,875 Square Miles Soybean Producing Area 1,022,000,000 + 127,750,000 + 766,500,000 = 1,916,250,000 acres 2,994,141 Square Miles Total Fuel Crop Area 2,994,141 + 739,875 = 3,788,016 Square Miles With 3000 miles from NY to LA thats a swath 1,262 miles wide. or the distance from NY to Miami. So I don't think we have the acreage.

[OkiePC 14]

I am not going to argue against your facts, but point out that your figures assume the ethanol capacity of corn only, and corn is one of many possible crops. It is actually less useful than sugar cane and switchgrass. Newspaper, rotten fruit (I have a huge healthy apple tree right by where the still is going in.) WIthin three years cellulosic ethanol will be commercially viable if we get a federal push. Then build and ethanol plant next to every landfill and mandate recycling of all cellulosic waste. How many cubic feet of cellolosic waste do we have? ( or to keep it simple, how many acres of landfill, and what percentage is cellulose?) Here's is a cellulose ethanol pessimist, but the optimists will eventually prevail No, the government cannot dictate our choices in everyday life, but can influence them. Do you wear your seatbelt? That is one of those health things too... No, a wise council of representatives and executive leadership would pass a low like this: For every pack of cigarettes for sale at the retail level, the tobacco company must provide the patch at an equal or less dialy cost based on a pack a day smoking habit. Don't take away our choices, just make stupid ones painful... Piece to all, I am going to go pass smooth out... I am really enjoying learning about this subject, so thanks for those facts too. Paul googlereceipt.bmp Edited 22 Oct 2008 by OkiePC

[TimWilborne 108]

You didn't address this, so I'm going to address these home fuel refineries it for you. No person who does this is home can call themselves environmentally friendly, doing their part to make the US a better place, or looking out for future generations although they will have the best of intentions. It's the same as the guy in the woods making liquor "to keep the man from charging him taxes". He's not hiding to avoid taxes, their not that much. He's avoiding the regulations that not only assure the liquor is safe to drink, but more importantly the ones that regulate the treatment of his waste which is mainly water. Now, I don't get real environmental, especially when it comes to air pollution. It is too complex for me to understand. Whether this particulate or that one is safe depends on whether it is in this part or that part of the atmosphere. I don't know who to believe. But I do understand waste streams and how it is very easy for someone to containment their drinking water or their neighbors drinking water downstream by doing this. For every gallon of ethanol you produce, you will produce 10 to 20 gallons of waste water. The higher the output of your still, the higher the ratio. I was browsing the internet and one full scale ethanol plant was producing wastewater at a ratio of 140:1! So on your one acre you are producing 350 gallons of ethanol. Actually some sites are claiming you can produce 420 gallons per acre, but we'll stick with 350 gallons per acre to keep everything the same. That means you are producing 3500 gallons of wastewater. What are you going to do with it? Dump into the public sewer? I can promise you if you get caught you'll be slapped with a big fat fine that will be the equivalent of your fuel savings for many years. But then again, do most people who would have the land to set aside an acre for ethanol have public sewer? I doubt it. Dump it into your septic system? Not if you have a lick of sense. Let it evaporate? That's going to get really smelly...plus you have to deal with rain water, mosquitoes, disease, etc. No, I get the feeling this is going to be dumped on the ground, just as it always has been. So what's in this waste water? I don't know the details, I can pull a plants permit when I get a chance, but the nitrates would be the one that has the red flag all over it in your drinking water sample analysis. So what's the problem with nitrates? The inhibit wildlife's ability to process oxygen and create dead zones. Oh but so what, we kill a few fish, a small sacrifice to end wars over fuel. Ever heard of Blue Baby Syndrome? It is a broad term for disorders such as Methemoglobinemia which causes babies to not properly process oxygen. Symptoms are, obviously, the baby turning blue and in the worst cases cause death. That bad enough? It can also cause birth defects from pregnant women drinking contaminated water, aggravates lung disease and existing cancers, and may actually cause cancer... Now Paul, I'm not trying to get on you, but it does irk me that you can do a search for ethanol,find your conversion kits for sale that you just purchased along with home ethanol making kits and anything else that someone can make a quick buck off of, but no one wants to inform you of the consequences of your actions.

[BobLfoot 301]

Now TW I'll surprise you with a strange fact. In 1992 any dairy farmer with 300 head of milking livestock could ahve bought a self contained ethanol plant for placement on his farm for $10,000. THis plant and yes I actually visited several in use, would take the kernel corn and convert it to brewers grains for the livestock all the while producing 3 to 5,000 gallons of 190 proof ethanol weekly. It was totally "self - contained" in that is also included waste water treatment section so thet the effluent was OSHA/DEC compliant in all 50 states at the time. Lack of interest meant the discontinueation of this item for sale as I understand it but the units are still running in some locations. And yes Technology has improved as well.

[TimWilborne 108]

Treatment systems are standard issue on industrial applications. I work with these type of systems and properly designed they work extremely well. That's why I attacked the individual who would not have these systems. I also know of some individuals who have nitrate contamination for similar reasons. Combined, these individuals can contaminate the ground water just the same as a big industry. But I would question whether these systems are "50 state legal"...though they may have been able to pass the typical permit. You might put two identical systems right here in Roanoke, VA and they may have to abide by two different permit guidelines. Regulations give a range that levels can be at. The permit issuer determines that actual allowable level Also, there is a big difference between being in compliance and being good for our water supplies

[Peter Nachtwey 15]

I want to add to the bar room economics that: Now the poorest 6 think they should be paid to drink beer.

[TimWilborne 108]

What? Did they pass another bailout?