Importance Education in Automation?

[brianafischer 2]

As I sit here studying for an exam late on another Sunday night, I find myself asking the same question over and over again... Is a Masters in Electrical and Computer Engineering worth the time and effort? What does a masters degree get you in the automation field? It seems that the automation field is unlike other disciplines, where technicians can move up to a design position. My current job has a heavy concentration in testing applications, which can require knowledge of advanced concepts. However, in general the automation field only requires a "basic" understanding of concepts. Anyways, what are your thoughts? What education background do you have? Thanks!

[Nathan 7]

My opinion - get the master's degree. Will it help you in the automation field? Maybe a bit. Like how a high school diploma might help you at Macy's. If you're not designing hardware or programming software, you'll find that it's probably mostly off topic with some useful info. It's sad that most colleges don't have degrees that will teach you anything useful about automation. I've seen examples of PHD type academics that have approached our field and complicated/butchered it. I worked with an integrator with an engineering masters degree who was terrible. Most good integrators I work with don't have a college degree. Did they finish high school? Who cares? Would they be better off with more education? Sure. But they all have a strong electrical/mechanical working knowledge and know how to learn new systems. It's more the integrator than the paper. I'm sure there are good trade specific training courses to get someone new on their feet. I think your analysis is accurate. Why did you sign up for the masters program to begin with? My degree is in Computer Science but I was doing automation work both before and after college. Edited 24 Sep 2007 by Nathan

[Peter Nachtwey 15]

I have a BSEE and a BSCE with about a year of extra training. I am, my company is, a designer of industrial products. I have learned to learn even more because there is no one to ask. I have to compete with other companies that have Phds.

[geniusintraining 2]

This is what I strived for.... I first saw it 15ish years ago, was a person came in an troubleshot a piece of equipment they new exactly nothing about, not even the name of it. But they were smart enough to figure it out, I think it had a lot to do with experience, but they also had to have a combination of education and street smarts. I wanted to be that person, to be able to walk up and repair something (that others could not) no matter how in depth the issue was and repair it back to a normal working state or even better. I saw one person, walk up and program a motion controller with out knowing anything about the software, I am sure Peter could as well, but I still enjoyed seeing him download the manual at 8:00 am (as I was wiring the panel) then by 3:00 that afternoon it was running, that also included the PLC program. My point is some of this stuff we all deal with can not be taught, troubleshooting is my primary job and it is also one of the hardest things to teach. I get more out of crash courses, one or two weeks, but I applaud any education.

[gravitar 3]

The more education have, the more it sets you apart in your field. You're right, you can be a good controls guy without any more than a high school education and O-J-T. This is probably more accepted in some ares than others. I can say with certainty, here in Detroit and in the auto industry in general, education takes a back seat to reputation and work experience. But in other areas a degree is expected. For example, I went on a job in Canada to a facility that makes products for their atomic power plants. they DID enquire into my level of education and it seemed to me that my involvement in the job was dependent on me having the BSEE. Even though I was just wiring up some field I/O. In the 90s I worked for an A-B distributor, and pretty much everyone they hired for an engineering position had an engineering degree. They prided themself in that. Several of them had an MS, which was an even greater prestige and distinction for the company. Once I find another company that will pay for it, I'm going to start working toward my MSEE. I've already got the BS and an AS in manufacturing engineering. I don't regret the time spent getting either one.

[Peter Nachtwey 15]

I have found the math ( differential equations ) an physics to be most useful. I took a couple numerical analysis class that has also I have done little if any EE or CE work. In this area I mostly evaulate processors for products. Now I work on algorithms. Just about everything you need to do has been done before but sometimes your can find new twist. A technician is not going to learn differential equations OJT. ONCE YOU GET IT, USE IT OR LOSE IT. The homework never ends.

[gravitar 3]

Here's proof: http://news.yahoo.com/photo/070924/photos_...jQ9.sDbGJyb.HQA The guy carrying the sign is the president of the UAW, and he apparently doesn't know basic punctuation :)

[Crossbow 294]

Once you get started, the degree doesn't mean more than experience. It's the same with the computer industry. In computers, the degree gets you the first job out of school. But the rest come from taking industry classes and passing industry tests, such as the Novell Certified Netware Administrator or the Microsoft Certified System Engineer. Basically, you need the school to get in the door, and then you need to focus on some industrial training from the manufacturers to make you more comfortable with the product you are working on most frequently. And the amount you learn on site working on the equipment is always more valuable than the classroom stuff you learn up front. As someone who moved from the computer industry to industrial automation in 2000, I can honestly say that the training I was given by my first automation employer helped me understand what the products were and where to use them, and that has assisted me in every job since.

[brianafischer 2]

My employer offered 100% reimbursement. I am fairly young, married, and no kids yet. From my point of view, who would turn down a free education? I will be done this December actually. The problem that I am having is attempting to implement the "tools" I have learned through graduate school. I can see some applications in the testing field, but nothing that can be directly applied to the automation field. One of the valuable skills I am learning is problem solving extremly complex systems (through matrix manipulation). Anyways, thanks for all of the feedback. It is nice to get a discussion going on this forum every so often. -Brian

[Peter Nachtwey 15]

That is good. Solving systems of non-linear differential equations is even better. Learning how to do the numerical analysis is better yet. Modeling is important because it allows designs to be tested virtually which can save lots of money by avoiding poor designs and finding the weaknesses of the good designs.

[Nathan 7]

Solving systems of non-linear differential equations - are you serious? We are referring to partial differential equations, right? You (the potential automation expert) have to ask yourself questions about what you're doing. I'm sure it applies to certain industries/projects, maybe motion control? Are you doing a lot of research or formal testing? It would certainly matter if you're writing aerodynamics simulations for Boeing. I'm willing to bet that 99% of your best automation professionals (integrators, PLC programmers, etc) would have a heck of a time solving an ordinary linear differential equation - I just responded to a post on plctalk where the guy was messing up a linear interpolation, yes the 7th grade y=mx+b type. Yet these guys tune PID loops day in and day out - likely better than the profs that write books on them. I'm still not saying that education is worthless. But the more complicated the tool, the better you should understand it if you expect it to be useful. You don't need to know how to do inductive number theory proofs to effectively add 2 numbers. This really seems to be the common denominator of what people have been responding - that education is a good background that may set you apart, but the real OJT is what the job's about. Also, being able to solve complex equations is great, but what I see in the real world is unnecessary complication usually due to a lack of basic understanding. The best PLC programs out there are simple - I guarantee that! Remember KISS! Or, as my sig usually says "Design Simplicity Cures Engineered Complexity".

[gravitar 3]

sometimes i wish i had a job that used higher math. it's been so long since I took those courses, I wouldn't be too far ahead of the por guy that couldn't solve the equation of a line :) 90% of the time, i'm looking at prox switches and pushing air cylinders back and forth.. and everyone around me thinks i'm some sort of rocket scientist!

[Peter Nachtwey 15]

PLC were designed to replace relays. Later simple PIDs and math functions were added. If you judge the world by a PLC then you have a limited view. If you could look inside the PLC and see all the complexity that Rockwell and Siemens have in their PLCs that you don't see your would be amazed. I know that would be true for a little motion controller you can hold in your hand. Someone getting a MSEE or BSCE should be designing PIDs or maybe PID software and firmware. A MSEE or MSCE should be designing motors or drives. Have you ever thought about how a DC drive or a flux vector dirve works? The designers make that easy for you too. Dig your way through this one http://www.atmel.com/dyn/resources/prod_do...nts/doc7545.pdf We added an observer to our motion controller a while back. If you look in the text books it looks complicated. It is really just a fancy filter that predicts where the motor position, velocity and acceleration should be. It makes control so much better. Most people on the PLC forums are just trying to figure out the speed and they wonder why is bounces around so much.

[Nathan 7]

Great points Pete! I'll save the trouble of quoting everything. I'm into software design where we do complicated things to make it simple for the end user. I'm still not knocking the value of education - particularly when properly applied. I would point out that most people have more to gain from a stronger understanding of the basics in their field. And I was exaggerating a bit to prove a point...

[Clay B. 1]

Long story short: Depends on what you want to do. As Peter stated the education can help more or less depending on what you are doing. With what I do understanding Peter would be of no help. Paying Peter to understand it by buying his system would. His motion control would be a part of a machine I am working on. I have to understand how it is supposed to work but not to the level Peter does. So as the first sentence stated: It is what you want to do and how far you want to take it. I myself am looking toward getting a buiness degree instead of futhering my engineering degree. Why would I do that? Because I am at a point in my life where I would rather manage than design or intergrate. If you are like Peter (then you head has to hurt from that much knowledge) then the degree your working on is the right way to go, if your like me then other than something pretty on the wall it will not help you much. As for everything else I have read in this thread, it is ability that is important, not how you got it. I know I have not used everything I learned in college but it has helped make the "light come on" faster when I was learning something new. Knowledge is like noise on a circuit it is additive. Have never met someone that had to much knowledge, just a bunch that thought they knew more than they really did.