BooTP Helper Device

[TimWilborne 108]

Good thought Ken, looks like this may be incorporated into a later version...but not for now. Not actually powering the device off of the USB, but charging the batteries.

[panic mode 246]

hmm this is more than I expected. i checked datasheets on few ethernet chips and this doesn't seam to be uncommon... i do however use external HDD on USB and this thing takes more than 200mA. i would have to see yet laptop that couldn't power it (i just use another cable, didn't want to cut off second usb connector which was used for tapping more power if for some reason single port didn't cut it....)

[TimWilborne 108]

You're right Panic, it looks like most laptops will probably supply enough power to run the device. My concern would be, what will be the next fad in laptops? Will they become super small and reduce everything, including the available power on the USB port, to reduce battery size? I may be wrong but isn't the reason devices such as the AB 1747-PIC won't run on newer laptops with built in serial ports because manufacturers have reduced the voltage available on the serial port to a minimum? The Ethernet chip requires 180mA when transmitting and 120mA when not transmitting. That is only the Ethernet chip and does not include the LED or other internal circuitry. I'm not trying to shoot down the idea, obviously Ken got the developers attention with this concern, but how about later a method of charging the AA batteries via the USB port be added? Would that satisfactory or would you prefer the device be powered by the USB port?

[paulengr 44]

Micrologix 1100 comes with the Ethernet port disabled.

[Contr_Conn 4]

I can't verify this, I did not touch 1100 for 2 years, but I beleive BOOTP is enabled out of box, here is user manual: http://literature.rockwellautomation.com/i...um001_-en-p.pdf page 229: Configuration Via BOOTP BOOTP (bootstrap protocol) is a low-level protocol that TCP/IP nodes use to obtain start-up information. By default, the MicroLogix 1100 broadcasts BOOTP requests at powerup. Edited 12 Jul 2007 by Contr_Conn

[TimWilborne 108]

Sorry, but are you sure about this? I just managed to commission one of these two weeks with a laptop with no serial port and no type of serial adapter. I did it completely through the Ethernet port. It was straight out of the box...brand new. I did not use the BooTP Helper which this thread is about but did use the Bootp Server which comes with RsLinx. Like I said earlier in this thread, this is the primary purpose of this device. Software such as Rockwell's Bootp Server is too complicated to when your only goal is to assign an IP Address long enough to download a program with the permanent IP Address. It leaves so many PLC programmers, such as Paul, thinking that their only option is down download the program through the serial port. Edit - I apologize, but I pushed the limits with my explanation of how this device would help Paul easily commission his products, straight out of the box, without the need for any type of serial connection so I removed this portion. The purpose of this thread is for the development of this prototype device and after rereading this post , this section sounded more like a sales pitch. Again, I apologize, but let's try to keep this thread on the topic of further developing this device as it is not actually for sale.

[TimWilborne 108]

The developer is debating on whether to switch to a membrane overlay which will house the buttons and cover the LCD display. The main purpose of this is to simplify the fabrication of the device. Does anyone have any thoughts on the longevity and reliability of these membrane style buttons compared to traditional buttons? Also comments on the general idea of using the membrane overlay are welcome Thanks TW

[Ken Moore 23]

Definitely don't hold up like "real" buttons do. On devices that are used day in and day out in production environments, the membranes wear out rather quickly. However, I would imagine that this device will only be used occasionally and not for very long. So should last quite awhile. The big question is will this reduce the final selling price, will the savings be passed along? A less expensive unit might sell better. Maybe later on there can be two models, the programmer model with the membrane, and the maintenance model with real buttons, more rugged, more expensive. __________________

[BobLfoot 301]

Second Ken's idea that membranes wear out quickly. Like the 2 editions. Or at least make the membrane replaceable as a maintenance item.

[TimWilborne 108]

The goal of the membrane is to get the production cost down. It takes too long to cleanly cut the LCD opening and the 4 holes. Right now labor will put it above the target price. But I see the concerns about the durability of the membrane. Thanks TW

[TimWilborne 108]

My initial understanding of the reason for the membrane overlay was incorrect. It will drive the price up and not down. Here are his comments Durability was my concern, but it was quickly dismissd by all membrane manufacturers I spoke so far. Today they make overlay from polyester that gives them 10 million cycles compare to 100,000 for older plastic materials that dry and crack. I can't verify this fact, but for in any case handheld that expected to be used just a couple times a month this will not be an issue. Just to compare: real buttons rated for 300,000 cycles. The issue is PRICE. Membrane overlay is MUCH more expensive than pushbuttons and will definately bring price up at least $25, may be more for low volume production. Like you said it removes need for clean precision cut and makes product look better, but it will not drive price down. What integrators want to see? - a barebone device with minimum price and no fancy label as it is today? - or nice looking device with membrane keys that will cost $25-$50 more? The bottom line: will people buy device as is for less money or they prefer to wait for nice looking device for $50 more?

[gravitar 3]

I've got mixed emotions about the overlays. On one hand, the overlay Medar uses on their programming pendant totally sucks. After a couple years the membrane is all blown out and the bubble switches are exposed. To make matters worse, they silkscreened the function of the buttons right where you push them, so now you have to write on the front of it with magic marker so that people will remember the functions. But then I think back to my old Atari 400. (which I've still got by the way :) Now that was a membrane keyboard done right. I've never seen one with membrane damage or worn away lettering. I guess they knew something back in the 70s that has since been forgotten! And as far as appearance, couldn't you fancy it up with a nice mylar sticker for the front of it? You'd have to cut out holes for the buttons or just avoid the button area entirely, but I think your friend would be missing the boat if he didn't have some clever yet unobtrusive graphics on the front Edited 22 Jul 2007 by gravitar

[Ken Moore 23]

Okay lets revist the goals of this device: 1. Must work first time all the time, and be easy to use. 2. Must look / feel like an industrial product, not something made in a basement. 3. Must be able to withstand an occassional drop. 4. Price must be within reason. You and your friend will have to balance out the pros/cons of each and come to a middle ground. If it looks cheap, and isn't durable; problem. If it looks great, and is durable, but expensive; problem. The happy medium is somewhere in the mix.

[TimWilborne 108]

Ok, how about something like this? Sticker label with regular buttons

[Clay B. 1]

My 2 cents worth. You would probably want to put some Quick start and use instructions on either the front or the back. Also a company adress with phone number. This thing will probably be best sold by word of mouth so you want someone to be able to just pick it up and use it. If they want to purchase another one they can get the address right off the thing. Another suggestion. Do not scrimp on the labeling. If it wears off quickly then the label is wasted. This thing will probably be slid into a pocket on a bag or dropped into a desk drawer. I would also make sure the power switch and connector ports are recessed to avoid it powering up when it is not supposed to or the port being damaged during storage.

[TimWilborne 108]

Your right again Clay. I had to make custom arc flash labels for a fabrication plant. Regular shiny labels didn't hold up well but Brady made on that seems to hold up great. I'll see if I can find the part number The Ethernet port is slightly recessed but the On/Off does stick out a little bit. I don't think I would like this recessed, makes it tough on the fingers. However, it does come in a soft clear plastic case. Do you think that would provide enough protection? Thanks again for the input TW

[PdL 71]

Does the connection require an crossover cable, straight cable or is the port auto sensing ? If it requires a crossover cable and doesn't have auto sensing, that could be a disadvantage cause in my experience the crossover cable is always gone when you need it. I know, you can carry one with the BooTP helper in a case, until your coworker comes along to borrow it for a night to setup his DSL router at home or whatever. I can't see use of this device myself but just thinking along. Also, is the ethernet port of the BooTP helper properly isolated ?

[TimWilborne 108]

Hi PdL Let me verify but I'm almost positive it requires a crossover cable and doesn't auto detect. Will check on the isolation too.

[Clay B. 1]

[PdL 71]

I agree, an auto sensing port together with connection LED rules out a cable problem if the LED is lit.

[P Daniil 0]

We have agonized (yes, agonized) on the issue of membrane fronts sometime ago and here is our experience from this part of the world: 1. What you pay is what you get. The faces are printed on the inside and to prevent inside wear/fading takes some extra steps and materials in their production. At a price you can also get mil-spec and vibration-resistant ones for >1 Mops (operations). Best value-for-money in our case proved to be four-color plus 100 Kops switch devices as this (anyway worst-case) figure outlives under normal industrial use other parts in the product such as the supply electrolytics. 2. As we produce in a high labour cost country we have also chosen this type of face as it saves design and production time and is less messy in assembly. 3. An additional plus is that they can be ordered/produced in small and large batches, ie their marginal cost sensitivity is manageable. Regarding price my non-expert view is that although nobody likes to pay more, your market is technical/engineering people who can understand/appreciate good craftmanship and materials so there should be no problem in charging the extra for the better quality materials and improved longetivity. Afterall this is a time saving device promoted in a high labour cost and technology intensive market. Good luck in your efforts.

[TimWilborne 108]

Got a reply back, So the questions are... Should you build a device that violates the Ethernet standard by using a straight through cable or use a crossover cable since auto sensing is not an option? Should the LEDs be activated or remain off to save battery power?

[Clay B. 1]

Does it really matter about the etherent standard? It is not like this thing is a switch or something that stays attached to the network. LEDs do not consume that much power so yes I would activate them to make using the device easier. Once again, this is just my opinion based on what I would do if I was building the device.

[JeffKiper 9]

This sounds like a product that is good for setup or loss of program recovery. What kind of price are we talking about I have not seen a hard price yet, maybe I have just overlooked it? Edited 26 Jul 2007 by JAK

[TimWilborne 108]

The developer has taken your advice and reversed the Ethernet connection so I will use a standard cable and not a crossover cable. Of course since standard cables are pretty common it will no longer have a cable shipped with it You haven't overlooked it, the product is still in development and discussion of price would violate the rules of the forum although there are some prototypes now making their way into plants for further evaluation