Lordzorak

Is there a list of recommended tools to have on hand when building a panel? Anyone got a favorite make and model of a particular panel building tool they can't live without? I looked but did not see a post that went over the time tested true tools and those that are nice to have. I may have to start building some of the panels that I design. It is an opportunity to learn. My first one will be slow and not as clean but experience is a great teacher. But learning from everyone's experience on tools might save some time (probably not money) and would be interesting to see. So what are your favorite and most useful panel building tools? Anyone have any input or a link to another post that might be informative? Thanks. Z

While it can be hard to read and does not establish a program for you, OHSA's regulations on the control of hazardous energy can be found be found here. 29 CFR 1910.147 and 29 CFR 1910.147 App A In Kansas, there is a partnership with OSHA where a separate state run branch exists to assist with compliance that is totally separate from enforcement. You can use them to help review and help with ways to be compliant while information shared and discussed is not shared with the enforcement side. This gives you access to help in trying to be self compliant. The service is a bit underused because people do not trust that issues brought up in the compliance help are kept confidential from the enforcement branch. I've used it and it was helpful. Your state may have something similar that might be able to guide you to approved training courses. I am glad no one got hurt in your incident. Remember also that lock out/tag out is more than just electrical energy, it is also any other source of releasable energy. This could be such things as steam, if say it is used to purge a confined space, then the steam line has to be turned off and locked out. If there is a spring loaded piece of equipment, the equipment has to be taken to the point of least energy and locked out. Gas lines and water lines are also other items that may need to be locked out. I would not want you to have to deal with OSHA, they are no fun. A company I worked for once got cited because we did have have the respirator appendix D information in our safety manual (All the original complaints were dismissed but once OSHA is out, they have to find something). The appendix had 4 common sense parts like read and follow the instructions of the respirator, do not use the respirator for things it was not designed for, do not use someone else's respirator, and use the respirator for what it was intended for. For this, we got a serious level violation (which we negotiated down) but with a serious violation, a second serious violation in a like a 3 year period could lead to some serious fines. So think what the death or injury of an employee can do. Hope this helps. Z

Bob, thanks for reply. This is exactly why I am asking for what people use, whether there are is something specific that is works wonders that they like to use. Everyone here already has gone through figuring out what works and what does not. And while I am sure it would be a great learning exercise for me and be a great initiation, I'd rather ask those who have been doing it and have already gone through it all. If I get a chance to get tools for this, I'd rather get something good thought possibly a bit more costly now, then cheap and have problems. Thanks again. Z

Mike: Yes, the information you gave was helpful. I was suspecting that it was something simple and my misguided attempt at auto/manual logic. I have removed the unneeded items and modified my logic. I will not be able to test it until tomorrow or the day after depending on weather. This will let me know if I understand correctly what you said or not. Thanks to both you and Mickey for your replies. Z

My question has to do with the auto/manual bit and how to go about changing CV values. On a SLC 5/03, with the bit cleared, the PID is in auto. It hums right along figuring a CV output. But set the AM bit and you go to manual. My first question is what is the best way to manually change the output? Should I write a % to the CV output in the control block (word 16) or is it better to write to the CV address itself? The second question is: What is the best way to go from auto control to manual control and back again without radical jumps in the system? Specifically when going from manual to auto. I know that once it goes back into auto, it will look at the error and the PID values to determine a CV. But is there a way to make that CV change based on what the manual value was when it was switched back to auto instead of basing it on a value of say zero that may cause a sudden change in the output? With the logic I have now, when switching from auto to manual, things are good. The output is held at what it was in auto and we can then manually change that value. However, if we then go back to auto at some point, the PID does not start out at the value that was in manual and will, in some cases jump the full spectrum and then control itself back to the area where the manual value was. What is the best way to accomplish these transitions with using the previous value as the starting point? Now, I believe that my transitions problem is related to how I did my logic. Specifically, I disabled my PID and used logic to either take the output of the PID or a manually inputted value and write one of those to the output directly. Hopefully there is a way such that when I return to auto, it uses the previous manual setting as its starting point instead of just jumping to. But this whole thought process made me realize that I did not know the best way to handle manual control of a PID. I suspect that I could clean up a lot of junk (along with learning a good lesson) if I can understand the best way to use the PID in manual mode. The application is a fan control. For most of the running time, the PID controls the output. However, at startup and shutdown, specific speeds are preferred. There are also times during normal operation where it could be advantageous to move the PID to manual and set in a specific fan speed. Then when that time frame is over, switch it back to auto. So if someone could give me some advice or direct me to a previous thread that had some good information on this, I would appreciate it. Thanks. Z

I do not think I saw Soluto (http://www.soluto.com) on the list but it seems to be a good program. It bills itself as Anti frustration software. It allows you, among other things to delay or pause certain startup programs until later in the uptime so your system boots up faster instead of being bogged down by everything attempting to start at once. You can see all your startup programs and the time they add to your boot time. If you are unsure what to do with a startup program, you can compare what other Soluto users have done for each of your startup programs The program is a beta and is currently free though there is plans to expand it.

Let me throw in my congratulations to everyone here who has quit smoking. I grew up with my mother smoking. Thankfully no one else in our family picked up the habit. But I will agree with Steve, do not become complacent about it. There are no cures for addictions. Once they have their hooks in you, they are there forever it seems. Stay strong and make sure the only things that smoke are blown modules. Congrats again!! Z

Interesting idea on how to treat moles. But I have come across a more satisfying solution. I got a pack on inline mole traps. Strong spring action pinches the moles in half almost. Then I have the satisfaction of checking the trap and pulling it out with a dead mole in its jaws. I just got the traps last week and have killed two moles already. The hard part is just determining the active tunnels. The fun part is knowing the mole is going to die in a manner that Jigsaw himself would be envious. Z

If all the above does not help, feel free to come to my backyard and whac all the moles you see. You'll receive a big prize if you get them all. Z

With ten results per google page, I can usually find what I am looking for on the first page. But if I do go to the next page or beyond, its probably out of old habit of having to go to the third or fourth or tenth page to get your results due to all the porn links that used to come up in the early days of search engines. But, since I am from Google, er Topeka, all I can say is that Google has all I need, nothing I don't want, and is better than Cats. Oh wait, the deadline is past. Just tell that to the reporters still asking for interviews with the Mayor. Z

If I remember right, the MIN and MAX values do not need to be a constant but can be an address, thus allowing you to change the value in that address if you wish.

Looks like I have some reading to do today. Thanks for pointing me in the right direction. Z

We have just inherited a control cabinet that has a SLC 5/03 with a Automation Direct EZ-S8C-F (RS-232 only) HMI. This will be used at a remote test location powered by a generator. There will not be any telephone or net connections at the site. I would like to see what can be done to have a remote connection to the PLC. I am not so concerned about the HMI, though it would be nice but its exclusion is not a deal breaker. Having not done this before, I have gone through several posts on the forum as well as AB's literature. In one forum post, I saw a site for cellular gateways and routers. I also have put together two possibilities through reading of how to accomplish this, but would like some sort of verification that it would work. The first thought is to use a 1761-NET-AIC with a 1761-CBL-AS03 cable to connect to the DH485 port of the processor. Then the cellular device would connect to the AIC. The other option I saw was a 1747 DPS2 port splitter which took the place of the AS03 cable, otherwise the rest is the same but allows for another RS-232 connection. I am not sure either would work or if there is a better way to accomplish it and would welcome any suggestions from those who have more experience than I. Thanks. Z

I would love to upgrade to a 5/05. Unfortunately, I do not get to make such decisions. Therefore, unless it is not possible (or costs more than a 5/05), I am stuck with what I have, which is the 5/03. And judging from what Paul says, yes, everything is possible. Thanks. Z

I understand that with Compact Logix, you have to keep in mind the distance from the power supply. But I have questions on the placement of modules in general, regardless of power supply distance. On the first bank, you can only have three between the CPU and power supply and eight to the right of the power supply. Then you can link over to a second bank with eight on each side of the power supply and to a third bank for the remaining three modules (30 total). But is there a required order that modules must be filled in. And what happens when future modules are added? My questions stem from this. I could have up to 20 modules and my goal is to keep my 120Vac wiring as much as possible to the left of the cabinet and my 24Vdc to the right. I would require two banks for this many modules. My 120Vac modules will fill up the first bank completely. The remaining would have to be on the second bank. Can I add those remaining eight modules to the right side of the second bank instead of the left side? And if that is possible, if a future module needs to be added, how much trouble is it to add the new module to the left side of the second bank? Such as, does the addition of the new module shift the logical position of the modules to the right of the power supply requiring programming changes to compensate? Or are all 30 positions already numbered and the first to the right of the second bank power supply is automatically position 20 regardless of how many modules actually exist before it? Thanks in advance for the information. Z

I just found someone in the area that does phenolic labels. I get to choose exactly what I want. Background color, lettering color, letter sizing, font, do I want four short rows or two long rows, whether I want adhesive on the back, predrilled corner screw holes, or no mounting options, etc etc. I pay more than I would on the mass market, but its worth it to get it how I want it and to say exactly what I want it to say. Usually the mass market labels always had something about them I did not like and there was only one choice of each warning. It may take a bit of looking in your area to find one not too terribly expensive with a good quality of stock, but it may be worth it. Look under engraving in the phone book or the net. The lady I use does it out of her home as a side business. No office and no extra cost. Z

When you boot from the CD and try the reinstall (or maybe one of the other options), does it give you a screen at some point showing your partitions? If so, try deleting all your partitions, then recreating them. Before the installation can continue, it will have to format those new partitions. This also gives you the chance to change how many logical drives you have. Instead of one big C drive, you could add a slightly smaller C drive and then add a D drive for maybe data storage or other uses. Backups of critical data may then be easier. If you need to create a boot disk, you can try the following from MS: http://support.microsoft.com/kb/305595 Hope this helps. Z

I was curious what people's preferences were with starter aux contact feedback to a PLC. Whether to use the internal transformer to feed the aux contact then go to the PLC or an external power source going through the aux contact. I think I see benefits to both, but the question stems from wondering if I were to use the internal transformer, how to have the output of the aux contact go to an input card on a PLC without raising an issue of the common wire of the circuit, which for an input card is common to all inputs (expect isolated input cards but they have fewer inputs thus requiring more cards). however, the common for the cabinet where the PLC is located would not be the same as the common where the bucket power originated from. One way would be to devote a card(s) to the buckets and just have the common from the card then go back to each bucket. But if there were any unused inputs, someone could tie something on the input not knowing it is not going to the common in the cabinet. And we would be in the same situation as above. One could also use the internal transformer to feed the aux contact that then goes to a relay. A second power source from the cabinet then goes to the NO contact on the relay, thus separating the two. Another concern with the external power source to the aux contact is the potential presence of a second voltage even when the bucket is turned off. But I was curious of what people here prefered in their experience. Any input is appreciated. Thanks. Z

I do not have any experience with the DH+ networks. I have a slc 5/04 that is connected to a Panelview 1000 standard. It is currently using the DH+ between the two and the plant wants to add a second Panelview 1000 standard. I know that you can daisy chain equipment along the DH+. My question is this: Is there a special connector that should be used or is it alright to merely stick both wires under the same screw, making sure there is a snug connection? The Panelviews will be the end of each side and will have the proper EOL resisters. This leads to the other question. Currently, they have a single cable between the Panelview and the 5/04, but no EOL resistors. Are EOL resistors required for a network with just two stops? I would still guess yes but the lack of them in this case made me wonder. Thanks in advance. Z

paulengr: Would you have the part number for these terminal strips? Also, thanks for all who replied. I do appreciate it. Z

I have recently started to learn how to design control panels. Everything has been in CAD so far but eventually will try my hand at building them. Regardless, I would like some input on how other designers/builders handle their terminal blocks. When you figure how many terminal blocks you will need, do you figure each wire with its own terminal block (or two wires, one on each side of the block with center jumper), or do you use two wires under each terminal block screw to cut down the number of blocks needed. I know that the block used would have to be rated for multiple wires and current that could be seen but what is considered the common practice? Thanks Z

Let me ask this then. If you prefer to have each wire to its own block, do you typically use a 6mm or even a 5mm block (when dealing with nothing larger than size 14 wire)? This would seem to be the route to go as the larger blocks would only be needed for single larger wire size or a combination of two smaller wire sizes. Further, when counting the number of blocks for a series of blocks with the same function, do you count wire on only one side of the block. For example, if I have a string of blocks acting as neutrals that are center jumpered and I know that I will have 20 wires coming to them, do you figure 20 blocks or figure 10 blocks (plus one for the circuit neutral). It would seem a waste of real estate to not use each side of a block when possible, but does the asthetics of the panel ever come into play in that you have all the same wire coming down the same side of the tray and all land in succession? Again, thanks for your responses and willingness to share. Z

Does anybody have any comments on this cable? http://shopv2.mrplc.com/product_info.php/products_id/71 It is offered on the shop section of mrplc.com but does not have any reviews and references to the product's website only references the shop. Thanks